The Elements of Deep Sea Mining

Available Episodes

5 of 17

Pradeep Singh on The Law of the Sea, the ISA, and the Politics of Deep-Sea Mining
Pradeep Arjan Singh — International ocean governance expert, Senior Project Manager at the Oceano Azul Foundation, and advisor to the IUCN. Pradeep works at the intersection of environmental law, global equity, and multilateral ocean negotiations.* LinkedIn: Pradeep Arjan Singh - https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradeeparjansingh/* Oceano Azul Foundation -https://oceanoazulfoundation.org🧭 Episode OverviewIn this foundational episode, Pradeep Singh takes us inside the legal architecture of the deep sea. We cover:* How the ISA came to be and what it’s actually supposed to do* Why the two-year rule was created and what it’s triggering has accomplished* The U.S. vs the ISA process* The difficultires of benefit-sharing and compensation mechanisms* What to expect at this year’s council meetings* What kind of research and financial modeling is still missingWhether you’re policy-curious or professionally involved in seabed governance, this is a must-listen.⏱️ Chapter Highlights00:00 – From Malaysia to multilateral negotiations: Pradeep’s legal background04:00 – The role of Oceano Azul, UNFCCC, CBD, and BBNJ11:00 – UNCLOS, the ISA, and why deep-sea mining triggered global treaty-making27:00 – What’s missing from the regulations: enforcement, liability, and monitoring33:00 – Benefit-sharing and the $95k problem45:00 – The two-year rule: origin, misuse, and consequences55:00 – U.S. unilateral mining: legal and environmental risks1:02:00 – Debunking geopolitics and the myth of metal scarcity1:10:00 – What we still don’t know: scaling, cumulative impacts, and economic modelingTheme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas🔗 References & Resources* John Mero (1965) on seabed mineral wealth -https://www.sciencedirect.com/bookseries/elsevier-oceanography-series/vol/1* Pradeep’s publication on the history and legal basis for moratorium: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00908320.2024.2439877* Nagoya Protocol (CBD) – model for benefit-sharing https://www.cbd.int/abs/default.shtml* Earth Negotiations Bulletin – daily negotiation coverage https://enb.iisd.org/international-seabed-authority-isa-council-30-2* Deep Ocean Stewardship Initiative (DOSI) – minerals https://www.dosi-project.org/minerals/* ISA Web TV – live council and assembly sessions https://www.isa.org.jm/the-authority-web-tv/* IUCN Briefings – DSM: https://iucn.org/resources/issues-brief/deep-sea-miningProgress Amidst Challenges: IUCN Reflections on the ISA Council's 30th Session (Part 1) : https://iucn.org/story/202504/progress-amidst-challenges-iucn-reflections-isa-councils-30th-session-part-1#:~:text=IUCN%20remains%20committed%20to%20the,a%20transparent%20and%20inclusive%20manner. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com
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Part2 - Mats Ingulstand: Abundance, Geopolitics, and the Long Arc of Scarcity
Mats Ingulstad — historian at NTNU and lead of the TripleDeep project. His research explores the political economy of minerals and the role of the ocean in the industrial and geopolitical imagination of the 20th century.Get in touch with Mats here: https://www.ntnu.edu/employees/mats.ingulstad🧭 Episode OverviewIn this second part of our conversation, we trace the forgotten history of deep sea mining—from the 19th-century Challenger expedition to Cold War anxieties and 21st-century geopolitics. Mats unpacks how policymakers came to see the ocean as both a limitless source of minerals and a pressure valve for post-war scarcity fears. We explore how ideas of abundance, global equity, and national security shaped early efforts to regulate the seafloor—and why those debates still echo today.📌 Episode Highlights00:00 — The Challenger expedition and the first discovery of manganese nodules02:35 — Fritz Haber and the dream of gold from seawater03:50 — WWII, Korean War, and fears of mineral depletion05:05 — The 1960s growth model and minerals as a peace dividend06:40 — “Common heritage of mankind”: abundance, not scarcity08:15 — Scientific misconceptions about deep sea ecosystems09:55 — Deep sea mining as a central issue in UNCLOS negotiations11:00 — 1980s market optimism and the “dematerialization” thesis12:15 — China, rare earths, and the return of mineral geopolitics13:30 — The EU’s “blue growth” vision for ocean mining14:45 — The uneven playing field: cheap nodules vs. land-based producers17:00 — Calls for production caps to protect terrestrial economies19:45 — Deep sea mining as “the poor man’s space mining”21:10 — The Jevons Paradox: will DSM reduce or increase extraction?22:35 — The shift from climate framing to national security framing25:10 — Making decisions across incomparable value categories26:10 — Why we need historians, philosophers, and social scientists in this space28:40 — Where we’re at today: too early to decide, but better informed29:50 — Reading suggestions and the conceptual challenge of writing a history of a non-existent industryTheme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas📚 Resources Mentioned* Helen Rozwadowski – books on the history and imagination of the oceanhttp://fathomingtheocean.com/books/* Tirza Meyer – https://tirzameyer.com/books/* Oles Sparrenberg – German-language book on deep sea mining in Germanypaper in english: A historical perspective on deep-sea mining for manganese nodules, 1965–2019 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214790X18303137* TripleDeep project (NTNU) – interdisciplinary research on DSM https://www.ntnu.edu/sustainability/tripledeep This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com
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Mats Ingulstad on the History of Deep-Sea Mining and Critical Minerals: Lessons from the Past, Risks for the Future
I sit down with Mats Ingulstad, professor at NTNU, whose research bridges the history of strategic materials, global supply chains, and the political economy of critical minerals. Mats takes us on a journey from his early studies in U.S. foreign economic policy to his pioneering research on deep-sea mining.We explore the origins of strategic and critical minerals policies, tracing them back to the First and Second World Wars, where nations scrambled to secure resources for military and economic stability. Mats discusses the evolution of these policies, highlighting the tensions between military necessity and global trade that still resonate today.We also dive deep into the complexities of Norway’s political landscape around resource governance—how the country managed its oil wealth, set up a model for state-controlled resource rents, and the current debates surrounding deep-sea mining in Norwegian waters. Mats provides historical context to Norway's decisions, comparing them with other resource-dependent nations like Canada, and unpacks why Norway's model succeeded where others struggled.Finally, Mats sheds light on the broader historical narrative of deep-sea mining: from its early conceptualization during the Cold War as a solution to mineral scarcity to its resurgence as part of the green energy transition. He explains how this shift from "abundance" to "scarcity" frames the current political and environmental debate.If you're curious about how history shapes today’s political decisions around critical minerals and the deep-sea mining debate, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.Key Takeaways:* The historical roots of critical minerals policy and their military origins.* How Norway's political structure enabled unique resource governance models.* The complex legacy of deep-sea mining as a strategic and economic opportunity.* Why the political framing of resource abundance vs. scarcity matters today.Timestamps00:00 Introduction to Mats03:47 Historical Context of Strategic and Critical Minerals06:01 The Evolution of Resource Management in Warfare08:17 Personal Journey into Academia and Deep Sea Mining09:43 Norway's Approach to Natural Resource Governance12:30 Trust and Society's Attitude Towards Deep Sea Mining14:33 Political Discussion and Public Perception of Deep Sea Mining17:10 Comparative Analysis: Norway vs. Canada in Resource Management19:23 The Role of Historical Context in Resource Exploitation21:38 Current Challenges in Deep Sea Mining Regulation24:03 Future of Deep Sea Mining and Societal Trust37:04 Navigating Resource Rent Tax Challenges39:40 Norway's Strategic Decisions in Oil Management45:15 The Role of State in Economic Development48:58 Pension Fund and Statoil: A Model for Success53:40 Risks of Deep Sea Mining: A Geopolitical Perspective57:50 Understanding Uncertainty in Resource Projections01:04:34 Balancing Public and Private Interests in ExplorationTheme music: Tamarack by Jesse MatasLinks to Mats’ related research projectsFate of Nations. Natural resources and historical development, 1880-2015.The high seas and the deep oceans. 3ROceans: Representations, resources and regulatory governance.The Deep Dilemmas: Deep Sea Mining for the new Deep Transition? (TripleDeep)This is part 1 of a 2 part episode tune in next week for the remainder of the conversation. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com
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Scott Vincent on Investing and Pushing Back on Narratives
In this episode, I talk with Scott Vincent, an investor and advocate for deep-sea mining who founded the Critical Ocean Minerals Resource Center to challenge what he sees as misinformation about seabed mineral extraction. Scott brings his deep expertise from the investment world to discuss the economic, environmental, and social trade-offs associated with deep-sea mining. Scott emphasizes the importance of acknowledging trade-offs in deep-sea mining, arguing that it can be a cleaner alternative to terrestrial mining. The conversation also touches on investment perspectives, regulatory challenges, and the need for a balanced dialogue in the ongoing debate about deep sea mining.If you have feedback or recommendations, please reach out to me by email: [email protected]:00 Intro and Housekeeping03:19 Introducing Scott Vincent04:24 Scott’s Path to Deep Sea Mining07:25 Why Nodules Seemed Like a Win-Win09:32 About the Critical Ocean Minerals Resource Center (COMRC)12:01 The Impact of Misinformation and the Moratorium14:22 What the Executive Order Really Does16:06 Trade-Offs: How Should We Think About Them?24:38 Unknowns, Externalities, and Jevons Paradox34:47 Processing, Solid Waste, and Tailings Dams39:37 Land Use and Indirect Impacts of Mining44:34 The Investor's Perspective on DSM48:57 Modeling and Processing as Key Variables55:17 Comparing DSM to Junior Mining Investment58:37 WWF Critique and Misinformation Claims1:09:12 The Role of NGOs: Help or Hindrance?1:10:37 Technology Choices and NGO Influence1:14:32 Polarization and Paths to Dialogue1:17:59 US regulatory approach1:23:30 Final Thoughts and Where to Learn MoreTheme music: Tamarack by Jesse MatasLinks and ReferencesWhere to Find Scott* Twitter: @COMRC_org* LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/scott-vincent-241b1426/* Critical Ocean Minerals Resource Center (COMRC): www.COMRC.orgLCAs and comparative studies* Life Cycle Assessment of NORI-D Polymetallic Nodule Project and Comparison to Key Land-based Routes for Producing Nickel, Cobalt and Copper: https://metals.co/bmi-lca-report/* Where should metals for the green transition come from? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355944407_LCA-White-Paper_Where-Should-Metals-for-the-Green-Transition-Come-From_FINAL_low-res2* Paulikas, D. (2022). Deep-sea nodules versus land ores: A comparative systems analysis of mining and processing wastes for battery-metal supply chains. Journal of Industrial Ecology, 2154-2177. doi: https://doi.org/10.1111/jiec.13225* Alvarenga (2022) Prospective life cycle assessment of metal commodities obtained from deep-sea polymetallic nodules: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652621040543* Comparing environmental impacts of deep-seabed and land-based mining: A defensible framework https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/gcb.17334 * Metal mining on land versus the ocean in the context of the current Biodiversity Crisis https://www.nature.com/articles/s44183-025-00110-zCOMRC Reports: * All reports: https://comrc.org/research/* "The Deadly Moratorium": https://comrc.org/a-deadly-moratorium/World Wildlife Fund (WWF) Investigations:* Original investigative report from BuzzFeed: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tomwarren/wwf-world-wide-fund-nature-parks-torture-death and Buzz Feed’s dedicated page https://www.buzzfeed.com/uk/tag/world-wildlife-fund* WWF-commissioned Independent Panel Review: Independent Review: https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/embedding-human-rights-in-conservation* Related news coverage: Professor John Knox Testifies before Members of U.S. House Natural Resources Committee on Human Rights and International Conservation: https://law.wfu.edu/2021/10/john-knox-house-natural-resources-committee-testimony/If you have feedback or recommendations, please reach out to me by email: [email protected] This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com
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Matthew Gianni on the Context of Conservation
I’m joined by Matthew Gianni, an independent consultant, advisor, and advocate for marine conservation based in the Netherlands. He is co-founder of the Deep Sea Conservation Coalition and currently serves as its Political and Policy Advisor. Matthew has been involved in international fisheries and marine conservation law and policy for nearly 30 years, working across the UN General Assembly, FAO, regional fisheries bodies, and the International Seabed Authority.In this wide-ranging conversation, we dig into the core dilemmas of seabed mining: governance, biodiversity loss, economic trade-offs, and the moral responsibility of global decision-makers. Matthew brings clarity, depth, and a global perspective on one of the most pressing environmental issues of our time.Follow Matthew* Twitter (X): x.com/GianniMatthew* LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/matthew-gianni-2934b514/* Deep Sea Conservation Coalition: deep-sea-conservation.org🔍 Chapters(00:00:00) — Intro(00:02:00) — Matt’s winding career path(00:04:40) — How the Deep Sea Conservation Coalition began(00:08:58) — Trawling vs. mining: a warning from history(00:14:56) — Lessons from 20 years of governance battles(00:20:54) — “Biodiversity loss is inevitable.”(00:33:12) — Who wins, who loses(00:39:10) — The trade-offs we rarely talk about(00:52:11) — The false dichotomy: land or sea(01:03:48) — How the ISA works—and why that matters(01:10:26) — “Serious negotiations by serious governments.”(01:16:32) — The ISA’s enforcement gap(01:23:50) — Why a precautionary pause isn’t radical(01:30:04) — Power dynamics at the ISA(01:38:40) — Ethics, governance, and legacyTheme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas🔗 Additional Resources Mentioned* MIDAS Project: www.eu-midas.net* UNEP Finance Initiative 2022 Report: https://www.unep.org/annualreport/2022* The Metals Company (TMC) Life Cycle Assessment Report: https://metals.co/bmi-lca-report/* Nature Article by Verena Tunnicliffe et al.: https://www.nature.com/articles/s44183-025-00110-z* International Telecommunitation Untion report on E-wastehttps://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Environment/Pages/Publications/The-Global-E-waste-Monitor-2024.aspxCorrectionsIt isn’t easy to speak for nearly 2 hours without notes. Here are a few corrections Matt would like to make:* 49:26 & 53:36 cobalt and copper should have been cobalt and nickel“estimates of future demand for metals, primarily for batteries, for cobalt copper primarily for for building electric vehicles”“But there is an alternative, which is invest in circular economy initiatives or invest in terrestrial mining for metals that are far more abundant than cobalt and copper are and that can be sourced from any number of different parts of the world as opposed to a few key types of ecosystems or national jurisdictions.* 50:26 metazoan species should have been megafauna“Up to half of the species, the larger species, the metazoan species in that area that have been discovered to date are likely to be nodule-obligate species, meaning they depend on the nodules for some portion of the life history, or they are species that depend on the species that depend on the nodules.* 55:10 the International Telegraphic Union should have been International Telecommuncation Union“the International Telegraphic Union, I think based in Geneva, puts out periodic reports. I don't think they're quite annual reports, but on how much e-waste is thrown away every year. And they estimate over 50 million tons of electronic waste is thrown out every year, of which less than 20% is recycled.”* Also, Matt would like to emphasize the need for Free Prior and Informed Consent of Indigenous People as one of the reasons the DSCC are calling for a moratorium/precautionary pause. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com
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