ThinkEnergy

The era of top-down energy projects is over. Today demands collaboration, equity, and stakeholder engagement. And in the clean energy movement, Indigenous partnerships often lead the way. James Jenkins, Executive Director of Indigenous Clean Energy, joins thinkenergy to unpack the Regenerative Energy 2026 Report. He explores what a just transition looks like, how Indigenous communities are shaping the future, and what the industry can learn from working together.
Related links: 
Indigenous Clean Energy: https://indigenouscleanenergy.com/

James Jenkins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-jenkins-27787913b/

Regenerative Energy 2026 Report: https://indigenouscleanenergy.com/regenerative-energy-national-survey-2026/

Bringing it Home Program: https://indigenouscleanenergy.com/our-programs/bringing-it-home/ 

Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en   



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Transcript:
[00:00] Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.
[00:26] Trevor Freeman: Hi everyone, and welcome back. We often talk on this show about the what of the energy transition. What needs to happen, what is happening, what technologies or initiatives are growing or up-and-coming. But it's also important to consider the how of it all. Energy systems are complex. That is something that should be clear in all the conversations we have around here, but it's not just technical complexity that we need to consider. Our energy systems are also socially, politically, and societally complex. It's not just a matter of picking the right technology and implementing it. If it was that case, we've got, you know, most of the technology we need, and we'd be in a much better position than we currently are. We have to figure out how we move these projects forward.
[01:14] Trevor Freeman: Traditionally, energy projects have been these large, top-down infrastructure projects. But increasingly, we're moving into a time when collaboration, equity, and stakeholder engagement are critical components of project success. One area where this can be seen—and, in fact, it's an area that's really pushing a lot of this change—is Indigenous leadership.
[01:38] Trevor Freeman: Over the past decade here in Canada, at least, we've seen a profound evolution where Indigenous communities are not just participants in the clean energy transition or kind of bystanders; they are actively leading it in many cases. That's not to say all the problems or challenges have been solved, but we're seeing a lot of movement here. And that's the topic of my conversation today.
[02:02] Trevor Freeman: To help us understand the scale of this movement, I'm joined by James Jenkins. James is the Executive Director of Indigenous Clean Energy, which is a leading organization accelerating First Nations, Inuit, and Métis participation in clean energy projects from coast to coast. I'm really excited to have James on the show today because his expertise comes straight from real, actual experience on these projects. As a proud member and former CEO of the Walpole Island First Nation, James personally drove the equity development for two 100-megawatt wind farms for his community. Today, he leverages that firsthand experience along with a diverse background in consulting, local government, and academia to serve as a national champion for Indigenous clean energy partnerships.
[02:54] Trevor Freeman: His organization just released their third national survey, the Regenerative Energy 2026 report, which provides a really eye-opening snapshot of how Indigenous communities are shaping Canada's energy future through innovation, equity ownership, and community-driven solutions. So today, we're going to dive into the findings of this report, talk a little bit about, you know, what a just energy transition looks like, and explore what utility and industry players can learn from these successful partnerships. James Jenkins, welcome to the show.
[03:31] James Jenkins: Hi Trevor, thank you for having me.
[03:34] Trevor Freeman: So, James, let's start a little bit with some background. Tell us about Indigenous Clean Energy and how your organization works to advance First Nations, Inuit, and Métis participation in the clean energy sector.
[03:47] James Jenkins: Sure. Indigenous Clean Energy is a not-for-profit organization, and we've been operating for about 10 years. So we started 10 years ago with the 2020 Catalyst Program, which was designed to develop a cohort of clean energy leaders coming primarily from Indigenous communities and businesses that could really shape the future of Indigenous participation in the energy transition. So we started with a cohort. It was led by just a few staff and our founding director, Chris Henderson. And this is our 10th year, so we'll be celebrating 10 years of the 2020 Catalyst Program at our national gathering in August.
[04:24] Trevor Freeman: Awesome. Congrats.
[04:26] James Jenkins: Thank you so much. So the goal of that program was to really expand the opportunities, the capacity, and the number of communities engaged in clean energy. And we have seen that progress tremendously over the last 10 years. We've seen federal grant programs to support that work also emerge as major contributors, and we've seen utilities across the country get on board and try to find ways to expand Indigenous participation.
[04:54] James Jenkins: So we've seen quite a bit of success, and with that success, we've grown as well. So we're now a team of about 35, and we're much larger. So we've expanded into a few other areas. One of them is youth, so we have two different youth programs. And we've expanded into energy efficiency as well, mostly under our "Bringing It Home" umbrella.
[05:16] James Jenkins: And the idea behind that is we've seen the success of the 2020 Catalyst Program and clean energy leaders really pushing the envelope in terms of what is possible when it comes to Indigenous-led generation projects. So now we're identifying a gap still existing when it comes to energy efficiency. And so, in a way, we're trying to replicate the success of the 2020 Catalyst Program. We'll be running our third year of the Project Accelerator soon. So that's geared towards energy efficiency; it's an intensive training program, and it comes with a grant.
[05:47] James Jenkins: And finally, we have a policy arm as well that's also very involved in engaging at the community and regional level. So that's through our Energy and Climate team, and we have a national hub that just completed a series of directional gatherings regionally. We also have a global hub as well that's active in Oceania and Latin America.
[06:09] Trevor Freeman: Oh, that's fantastic. Tell me a little bit about the youth programs that you're running.
[06:14] James Jenkins: So, we support youth across our programs, but we have two programs in particular that are geared towards youth. One of them is the Imagination Program, which comes with wrap-around supports and training. Right now, we're developing a micro-credential with the University of Saskatchewan for our program participants. It comes with a grant to lead a community-scale project. A good example might be a solar-powered greenhouse. Many of them are linked to schools, and, you know, we see the passion of younger members of communities that want to move these projects forward, but it's entrepreneurial in spirit.
[06:49] James Jenkins: The second is called Generation Power, which is a wage subsidy program for Indigenous youth, and we pair them with employers in the clean energy field. So some of them are utilities or renewable businesses; in some cases, they're communities or Indigenous businesses that are moving forward on projects. And it's more than just a wage subsidy; we identify all of the potential barriers for Indigenous youth entering these jobs and provide those kinds of support to increase their chance of success and staying in the workforce after the placement.
[07:22] Trevor Freeman: Oh, that's very cool. We've talked a few times on this show about building that next generation of energy champions and people that are focused, you know, on this new form of energy—this new energy transition or this new world of energy that we're moving into. So fantastic to see you guys participating in that. That's really cool.
[07:42] Trevor Freeman: So, I want to spend some of our time here talking about the report that your organization recently released titled Regenerative Energy 2026. So before we dive into the specific data and the numbers, let's talk about, you know, just that title itself and what the document sets out to achieve. So first of all, tell us about that term, "regenerative energy." What does that mean? Why did you choose that title?
[08:09] James Jenkins: Sure. So just generally, regenerative energy is the idea that these projects are doing more than producing electricity for the market and potentially bringing in revenue. They're also contributing to the broader ecosystem, which could mean the ecology of the landscape or a reduction of carbon into the atmosphere. So it's looking at the wider impacts and planning energy with that in mind.
[08:33] James Jenkins: In the Indigenous context, it goes deeper than that. We're incorporating sovereignty, energy sovereignty, and acknowledging that communities are increasingly expecting to be able to move through their energy journey on their own terms. And so that could mean other outcomes in addition to just energy stability and security. It expands to food security, but also ultimately the community being able to plan its future—how does energy fit into that?
[09:03] James Jenkins: I think it fits into what we're seeing in Indigenous communities in general, where there is a need to revitalize our cultures, our practices, our governance structures. We're finding that the energy sector—it's a business sector and an opportunity and an expanding sector—but there's also alignment in terms of values in many places, with communities looking to have an impact on their landscape, on the ecology, and this is a way to do that.
[09:30] James Jenkins: So regenerative energy is acknowledging that there is this revitalization happening. It's not as though our communities, our governments, our nations were extinguished over the last 300 years. What does it mean in terms of revitalizing those practices, and how do all of these projects and ambitions when it comes to energy fit into that?
[09:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I like that description. Thanks for that, James. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is it fair to say that the choice to use "regenerative" instead of "renewable"—which is fairly buzzy as a term, everyone kind of has renewable energy on their mind—was a deliberate choice? You're building more aspects to it; there are more facets of the description you just gave of regenerative energy compared to just renewable energy. Is that fair to say?
[10:19] James Jenkins: Well, and that's true as well. And as you've read in the report, we're seeing projects expand beyond just what we would term "renewable" projects. So that was the bulk of the projects up until recently, but now transmission lines and battery storage are becoming more prominent.
[10:36] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Great. Okay, I do want to talk to you about that. So my second question kind of at a high level around the report is, you know, one of the goals or one of the things you're doing in this report is really compiling and tracking national data around these projects. Why is that important? Why is that something that you're striving to do—to really track and compile that data?
[10:59] James Jenkins: Well, in the context right now, we have a federal government that is trying to identify meaningful projects that can have an impact on the economy, have an impact on spurring economic growth in different regions. And so it's a critical time for us to broadcast information on our dataset because collectively, these projects that have Indigenous ownership and co-ownership are a massive portion of the electricity generating infrastructure of Canada, and they have a meaningful impact on the economy, but also the ability for communities to finance their own programs, to reinvest in economic development.
[11:36] James Jenkins: So it's a critical time from that perspective. I think there's a need for us to be even louder because collectively as a nation, we seem to be looking for these wins that can be a shot in the arm. You know, we're worried about economic growth, and here we have many examples of projects that have Indigenous participation and that are having these benefits that are allowing different regions that are not participating in the economy in as active a way—this is a real opportunity for them.
[12:05] James Jenkins: And unlike many of the mega-projects that we're thinking about right now, these have shorter timeframes, less challenges, and the risk is much more manageable in comparison. So, you know, we are trying to point out that, A, these kinds of projects—which are renewables, but also battery storage and some of these other projects—these are important for the federal government to continue to invest in because they have been investing in it heavily over the last 10 years, and that's part of the success story.
[12:35] James Jenkins: But there is also a set of learnings that can be drawn from when we have so many examples of good partnerships between Indigenous and non-Indigenous organizations moving these projects forward. So I think when we look into the future as to how this should look, what does Indigenous participation look like for these mega-projects, we have a bit of a blueprint that we can draw from.
[12:57] James Jenkins: And so we are trying to bring more attention to this. I think it's really step one. The federal government can pat itself on the back that it's been one of the key reasons why Indigenous participation in the energy sector has grown over the last 10 years, but it's not getting the attention it deserves in the current conversation. So I think that's why it's a really critical time, possibly for other non-government actors as well that are asking, "Well, in the current global and national framework, what is the best way to achieve climate outcomes, Indigenous participation in the economy, greater social outcomes?" And so we do want to point to this as a good news story that has a track record, and that's what the data really does—it speaks to that track record.
[13:41] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, you often hear it framed, and in fact, just, you know, we're recording this on a Monday—just over the weekend I was listening to the radio, one of those call-in shows that really framed the choice as, "you know, we either invest in climate solutions or we focus on the economy." And I think you can probably say, "we invest in, you know, Indigenous partnership or the economy, or climate solutions." And what I'm hearing from you is it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. It doesn't have to be either/or. In fact, the data you're showing and the projects that you're highlighting show that all of these outcomes can be achieved with the right focus and with the right investment. Is that fair to say?
[14:21] James Jenkins: It is. And generally, the bucket of renewable projects or clean energy projects, the timelines are shorter, the cost is going to be easier to quantify, and the cost is coming down for these technologies—wind, solar, battery—in comparison to some of the other technologies that are being framed as the solution, which I think they will be. But framing it as either/or doesn't make much sense, especially when electricity demand is growing and it's an immediate issue.
[14:51] James Jenkins: So we should look at some of these immediate solutions and acknowledge it's still a question mark for some of the other sectors that are going to be involved in building out our electricity capacity. Mining, some of these other sectors, there are some examples of Indigenous participation, but not hundreds of examples of equity participation. And so, absolutely, I've been hearing those kinds of either/or arguments, or "no more federal grants, we should have access to capital instead." That could do a real injustice to the existing capacity that's already there, like the number of people in energy offices at Indigenous communities right now.
[15:28] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. So let's dive into some of the data then. You know, you see headlines sometimes about major Indigenous clean energy projects happening in collaboration, and the data in your report really backs this up. I don't want to throw too many stats out there for our listeners, but just quickly, you know, there are over 350 medium-to-large electricity generation projects across Canada with Indigenous participation. We've got 250 of those already operational, the rest in either construction or planning stages. From your perspective, James, you kind of already touched on this—the role of the federal government driving some of this momentum and visibility—just expand on that a little bit. Like, how did we get to these pretty impressive numbers where we're seeing lots of these projects?
[16:15] James Jenkins: Sure, definitely. I think the origin goes back at least to around 2000 to 2008 when there was a series of Supreme Court decisions that ruled in favor of Indigenous communities when it comes to the duty to consult and accommodate—that's what the Supreme Court ultimately called it. So that's a framework that was very important when it came to Indigenous engagement in energy projects.
[16:43] James Jenkins: As the UN Declaration starts to gain traction in our country, it may become less important, but it was certainly a turning point. So decisions like Mikisew Cree up to Tsilhqot'in created a framework where communities could get involved and had the legal backing to do so. Some jurisdictions—with Ontario probably taking the lead at that time, BC following, and many others following that model—supported Indigenous communities so that they could be involved in what the Supreme Court was framing as consultation. And what that meant was having the capacity to be engaged in project review. And often, the developer bore the cost of that.
[17:23] James Jenkins: But there could be positive outcomes because it meant there was a framework and an impetus for communities and developers to sit down at the table when the development was taking place in the territory of an Indigenous community and their rights were potentially going to be impacted. So as that process became the norm in most regions in Canada, what emerged was this mechanism called an Impact Benefit Agreement as a way for the developer and the Indigenous community to sit down and say, "Okay, we've identified these impacts—and these are impacts to the practicing of rights that are enshrined in the Constitution, so there's this channel back to the Supreme Court decisions—so we'll have a confidential agreement called an Impact Benefit Agreement to offset those impacts," which never really fit the spirit of the Supreme Court decisions, but it was adopted all over the country.
[18:14] James Jenkins: And when Ontario and BC went to bring more renewables onto the grid more quickly, they were looking at different ways to ensure there was the kind of local participation, and so they experimented with creating incentives for Indigenous equity participation in the projects. Sometimes that included municipal participation as well, but we saw a large uptake in that. And that was something I was involved in; I was a band manager in my community of Walpole Island First Nation in the past, and while this was happening, I had some other roles.
[18:47] James Jenkins: But we saw it as an opportunity, and ultimately, there were many renewable projects entering the grid in Southern Ontario at a rapid rate. One of the things we were able to identify was that equity participation brought much more benefit to the community than an Impact Benefit Agreement. In the kind of projects we were looking at, it was usually tenfold if you quantified the net revenue from equity participation versus the takeaway from an Impact Benefit Agreement.
[19:17] James Jenkins: So that started to become the norm, and Indigenous communities started to see this as a more meaningful way to address the need for development to happen rapidly in certain regions and especially with renewables. So there was a period where new hydroelectric projects started to include some equity participation, and then we saw, with the expansion of wind and to some extent solar, that happening at a rapid rate starting about 2008.
[19:44] James Jenkins: It's expanded since then for a few reasons. So one is that over time, most regions in Canada have—most provinces have directed their utilities to put incentives in their calls to power to try to ensure more examples of Indigenous equity participation. The other possibility that's happened, which was more an Alberta story but it's been experimented with in some other jurisdictions, is a deregulated market where an Indigenous partner and non-Indigenous partner, or a fully Indigenous-owned project, can go to a consumer and negotiate a power purchase agreement, sell power directly. Sometimes having an Indigenous community providing power provides other benefits to the purchaser, whether it's the industrial or commercial partner, and so that led to quite a few projects as well in Alberta for completely different reasons.
[20:34] Trevor Freeman: Would those other benefits be like preferred rates? What are the other benefits that you're referring to there?
[20:39] James Jenkins: It could be preferred rates. In many cases, it's things like corporate responsibility, just the sustainability measures of having, you know, purchasing from an Indigenous partner. So that was enough of an incentive to really, you know, spur a market in those areas.
[20:56] James Jenkins: And then we've seen the federal government invest through grant programs in Indigenous capacity in the energy sector. So that has allowed communities in many regions to engage in these opportunities and just have the staff to do it. Because most communities are generally dealing with many, many issues all at once—it's like three levels of government all in one, and most services are underfunded. So being able to actively participate in these opportunities, ensure there is enough trust to move forward and that the community is coming along with it, usually requires some expertise and people in the community that understand energy enough to keep everybody engaged. And these federal grant programs have contributed to that as well.
[21:40] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. So with this change over the last let's call it 20-odd years or so, is there a fairly established model or process now that you see Indigenous communities and partners working through, or is every kind of new project finding its way anew? I guess what I'm asking is, yeah, is there an established process? Is it kind of like you know how these projects are going to go now, given that there's quite a bit of experience over the last 20 years?
[22:06] James Jenkins: It's not an established process. And so we—for our Energy and Climate team—we engaged with BC Hydro and Manitoba Hydro to some extent on their recent calls to power and procurement because they're both looking at ways to ensure there's more Indigenous equity in projects, and there are different models to choose from. But there is the ability to look at what happened in different jurisdictions, draw from maybe what worked and what didn't, and so we're seeing utilities start to do that as they develop new procurement procedures.
[22:38] James Jenkins: On the partnership side, things continue to evolve, and there's always the risk that some of these partnerships may be less beneficial to the Indigenous partner. So another report we released six months ago with Clean Energy BC is an equity guide, and the target audience of that is Indigenous communities that are looking at these equity participation opportunities to make sure that the process is fair to them and transparent to them. So there is a framework in place, but I think there's always a need to ensure that communities have access to the tools so that they have a meaningful seat at the table. And it's not a given that those will be in place, so it is an area where we place some of our efforts.
[23:22] Trevor Freeman: And have you seen a change—like you talked about kind of the initial push for a lot of renewable projects being part of the impetus of seeing a big expansion here in Indigenous partnership—at least here in Ontario, which of course is where I'm sitting and we're having this conversation, there was a bit of a slowdown in that, but as we see demand significantly increasing, we're looking at more and more projects. So are you seeing that ebb and flow of project participation as well, or has it been pretty steady in terms of engagement over the last little while?
[23:54] James Jenkins: In most regions, it's been growing. So you look at the Atlantic region, Quebec is really pushing for Indigenous participation in renewables. In most regions, that's happening—Maritimes very much so right now.
[24:10] James Jenkins: In Ontario, we saw with the results of the most recent call to power quite a few northern projects, which is a bit surprising, but I know that's what they wanted to see happen, and it opens up some opportunity for communities in Northern Ontario. In Ontario, I think there are more regions where renewables are less socially accepted right now. And I talk to some people in Southern Ontario that are surprised how accepted it is in most of the country, with a few exceptions. So, you know, I think we might see ways that Ontario tries to draw projects in, whether it's within regions or partners where there is that social acceptance. But that's to be seen.
[24:50] James Jenkins: But Ontario, like other places, knows they need to meet this growing demand, and renewables are relatively quick to deploy, relatively low risk, and will likely be part of that solution, just like everywhere.
[25:05] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Great. Okay, I do want to talk to you about that. So my next question, you mentioned this a few times, that we're not just talking about solar panels and wind turbines, which I think is what most people think of when they think of clean energy projects, but you have mentioned a significant growth in transmission projects as well as battery storage. And there's a number of projects that are now kind of in operation with Indigenous co-ownership that fall into that transmission and battery storage category. So tell us about the economic opportunity for Indigenous communities of these types of projects, not just generation projects.
[25:44] James Jenkins: Right. So battery storage is growing more along the same trajectory as those generation projects have been in the past, and as the cost for battery storage has come down, it's become a very viable way for utilities and provinces to deal with the intermittency of electricity and increase stability while meeting targets for carbon emissions. So we're seeing more Indigenous leadership in that area.
[26:10] James Jenkins: And there's a premier project in Ontario, the Oneida Energy Storage Project, where Six Nations of the Grand River approached NRStor, their partner, to develop the project and then went to the Ontario government and said, "This is what we'd like to do, this is how we see it will meet some of the needs." So there was some real ingenuity in there, and I think in some way, that's an example of what could be the next stage in terms of Indigenous energy planning as that kind of capacity builds because Six Nations of the Grand River had quite a bit of experience under their belt in terms of participating in energy projects.
[26:45] James Jenkins: And then Ontario has also been the leader in procuring battery storage projects, and for the most part, most of them have Indigenous equity participation in those projects. A lot of them benefit from existing relationships between construction companies and communities that can look at these opportunities and co-design them together. And I think we'll start to see that in other parts of the country as that builds. But it is a major opportunity as the technology allows us to meet some of the need to stabilize the grid, and, you know, it could reduce our reliance on solutions like natural gas, so it's a real opportunity.
[27:21] James Jenkins: When it comes to transmission lines, it's a slightly different trajectory, but I think it goes back to the duty to consult and accommodate and parties sitting at the table understanding where do we go from here when there's a project that is going to have this enormous landscape impact and we can no longer do what we did in the past, which was ignore any Indigenous rights on the landscape.
[27:46] James Jenkins: And I was in Ontario for the last 20 or so years and witnessed the demand from Indigenous communities to participate in transmission projects. It wasn't passive in any way. So now we hear from utilities that are saying the right thing to do is to provide these opportunities, which is fantastic. But back then, it really was Indigenous people with the foresight and the stubbornness to for years say, "No, we need a solution that's going to meet all of our needs." And as we started to see some examples—Saugeen and Nawash being one of the first, and then others in Ontario where there would be this kind of Indigenous co-ownership—it gradually started to become more accepted.
[28:25] James Jenkins: And now it's part of the plan in many regions of Ontario, and this is a way to move the project forward, have Indigenous communities on board, and when they're sitting there as partners, there are a number of advantages that they bring to the table because in many cases there is knowledge of the landscape itself. And looking at preferred routes and other major decisions can really benefit from having these communities at the table providing their knowledge as opposed to sitting sort of on the other side of an adjudication table, which is only going to add risk to a project.
[29:00] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean we see all parts of the electricity sector growing, and transmission is one of those areas for sure that in order to support electrification across the province, we're going to see more transmission. So it's great to hear that this is an area that is growing, or getting more buy-in, or there's more partnership happening in all parts of the electricity sector.
[29:21] Trevor Freeman: So, James, you talked about regenerative energy earlier, we touched on that a little bit, and how that term is focused on being built on fairer and more equitable relationships. In your report, you kind of take this a step further by explicitly stating that this work seeks to advance the Truth and Reconciliation Commission—notably, Call to Action number 92. And so for our listeners who are not familiar—and please, definitely step in here if you want to explain it differently than I'm going to—but Call to Action 92 specifically calls on corporate Canada to adopt the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, to commit to meaningful consultation and consent, and ensure Indigenous communities gain equitable access to jobs, training, and long-term economic benefits.
[30:13] Trevor Freeman: So we often hear reconciliation discussed in a social or a political context, but your report really points to the actual act of Indigenous-led clean energy infrastructure and how that can embody this reconciliation in a material and meaningful way. And I apologize that I'm rambling a lot, this is a long question. How does building out physical infrastructure—like generation programs, transmission lines that we've been talking about, battery storage—how does that advance these goals that are kind of laid out and described in this particular Call to Action?
[30:52] James Jenkins: Mm-hmm. And you're right, the benefits of these projects isn't just the net revenue, but it's also apprenticeships, jobs, the business capacity that comes with participating in the project, and sometimes the ability to open up opportunities for practicing harvesting rights where, when Indigenous communities don't have a seat at the table, often the gate or the door is shut to opportunities and access. So it's a way to open those up.
[31:19] James Jenkins: And in my experience with projects in my community, when we were reviewing projects through the IBA or Impact Benefit Agreement process, the goal was always a number of apprenticeships, contribution to education, capacity, and it was always a good news story getting some jobs, employment readiness out of the project. And it was a remarkable shift to be sitting at the table as a partner and be discussing those same outcomes and really led to more of a spirit of cooperation. And we had some really great successes come out of that.
[31:51] James Jenkins: As well as community members feeling like, "This is an industry that I can go work in, and I'm not a stranger in a strange land. My community has a stake in this," and feel that sense of ownership but also home, which can be this indirect challenge when it comes to people entering the workforce and sticking with it. So that kind of ownership—it's part of the solution, how do we grow the Indigenous workforce? When the Indigenous communities have a financial interest in it, it really changes the picture quite a bit, and it really helps with the foreignness that can exist. And so we've seen the opposite in renewable industries and clean energy where many communities and youth are starting to see this as a viable career path and one that makes sense for them.
[32:38] James Jenkins: So, you know, and like I said before, when Indigenous communities are sitting at the table—and in my experience we had gone through project review on many, many projects because of the Impact Benefit Agreement process—we were able to bring that knowledge we had of project review to the table, which can help the project. So it was a real meaningful exchange of, "How can we meet these milestones on time? What can we bring to the table?" So there's that aspect of it, but then there's also the multi-generational knowledge that comes with living on the land.
[33:10] James Jenkins: And, you know, in some ways sitting down with elders, that does take a long time and commitment and is often different than how we would typically view going through the early stages of a project. But at the end of the day, it can lead to better outcomes and actually not take as long because the pathway to gain the knowledge for the least impact through a traditional process is also incredibly time-consuming. And so having an Indigenous party at the table that can bring the correct knowledge keeps things forward, making a meaningful decision from their perspective can really add value in that way as well.
[33:48] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's great to hear that you're seeing the impact of these programs on both the projects themselves and better outcomes in the projects, as well as building capacity and partnership in Indigenous communities. And I'm glad you kind of brought those youth programs back up; it's great to hear about those programs.
[34:07] Trevor Freeman: So, you have a report or you have a section sorry in your report called "Opportunities Unrealized," which really highlights major gaps or a gap for community-focused projects right now as different federal funding programs sunset, and you specifically call out three particular pillars that need renewed policy and funding commitment. So first off, you talk about 78 healthy energy housing projects that are mostly just small pilot initiatives. And that's looking at energy efficiency in homes, which you did touch on earlier, and how that's tied to Indigenous health and energy sovereignty. So how do we move beyond those pilots to fund these at scale? What are your thoughts on how we do that?
[34:53] James Jenkins: Right. So our approach is really, A, to support these pilots as much as we can so that we have that cohort of Indigenous leadership that has that experience in community, and so it can have that ripple effect where, when we started to see successful generation projects, some of them coming out of the 2020 Catalyst Program, other communities said, "Well, I want to do that too. How do I make that possible?" And then there's some leadership to grow from. So it's really catalyzing that momentum. And where do we start? So that's the piece in terms of making sure that there is a core group of energy leaders in communities that are almost at the stage where they can have a very impactful, community-scale project when it comes to efficiency that can be replicated and that there are individuals with this knowledge that are in the community.
[35:41] James Jenkins: So that's the first piece, but then the second piece and the other side of the coin that we're very active in is identifying what would the solution look like to make that kind of change repeatable on a national scale. And what we're generally pointing towards is some aspect of federal support, but also private investment as well. So what kind of mechanism can be put in place that will allow private finance to make sustainability programs for Indigenous healthy homes and buildings and infrastructure feasible?
[36:15] James Jenkins: And we think it is going to have to be some kind of partnership between the federal government to secure some kind of financing tool and then to bring that private capital in. And so we have a number of partners that's expanding in the finance sector, in government, to really look at what a solution like that looks like.
[36:35] James Jenkins: Indigenous housing, being a federal responsibility with the federal government having a large role in it, is certainly unusual and comes with some very unique challenges that make change at that scale difficult, but it's also an opportunity. And it does put the federal government in a position where it could lead a process like that and have some very large impact. So we want to make sure there is the existing community capacity for community members to know what meaningful change looks like at the local level, what the challenges and opportunities are that can contribute to that process. So that's the idea behind the Project Accelerator, but also design at the national level of a program that can lead to new builds, new sustainable builds, and retrofits on a major scale.
[37:21] James Jenkins: And there are interesting examples. I was in the US earlier this year at a clean energy conference and was surprised to learn that there were very large subsidies for energy efficiency that were available to Indigenous communities up until recently—I would say at a scale tenfold of what we've ever seen in Canada. So those kinds of programs are possible, and I think we need to think outside the box and think about how do we put this into action.
[37:51] James Jenkins: But ultimately, what we point out in those reports is that energy efficiency also leads to other very critical outcomes, including health and social outcomes at the community level. And speaking with communities, politicians from communities, housing tends to be a near number one or number one issue, with housing in need of repair being the core issue. And so ensuring that new housing is built with these sustainability measures in place will lead to houses that stay healthy for longer. And so, you know, it really goes much farther than just energy outcomes and that's why it's so critical.
[38:34] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's another example of it it's not an either or question here, it's, you know, do it right in the right way and have a focus on both healthy and affordable housing at the same time as making sure it's energy efficient and you're kind of achieving both of those goals. So that's great.
[38:58] Trevor Freeman: So, the second item you've identified in this section is, you know, a lot of northern and remote communities who rely on diesel for their energy focus, and our listeners may remember about a year ago we had a conversation with Quest Canada on this topic as well. And so, a lot of those communities are among the most affected by climate change and natural disasters, and you address what needs to happen from an early-stage planning and funding perspective to ensure that those communities that are not necessarily connected to a grid aren't left behind in this transition. Can you speak to us a little bit about that?
[39:41] James Jenkins: Absolute. So already the cost of diesel in these remote communities is very high. So it's already an economic and social challenge in the territories and remote areas in the northern provinces. And so it's an area where communities tend to be very engaged and have been since the beginning. So we've been engaged with northern communities since the beginning with 2020 Catalyst.
[40:15] James Jenkins: And I think it has a really—for them, clean energy has this impact on them like on a visceral level. For communities that have been able to implement clean technology and turn off the diesel generator for a while, they've talked about the impact of that silence that they haven't heard in so long, you know, the smell of clean air and that sort of thing. So there's this real passion, but also acknowledgment that, you know, they want to be part of a larger climate solution, they're feeling the impacts. And so there are many initiatives in the north, a number of which we've supported.
[40:53] James Jenkins: But there are many challenges as well in terms of logistics, the value chain. Transportation is a real challenge compared to infrastructure in the south. So because there have been so many projects and we partnered with the federal government through two phases of a program called the Indigenous Off-Diesel Initiative—and that was supported by a number of federal programs and we're just finishing off the second cohort—there is so much that we've learned through a couple dozen communities that have been heavily invested in reducing their diesel reduction.
[41:35] James Jenkins: And we're really at a stage now where we can learn—we can take stock of what we've learned through this process and identify how do we get this to the stage of successful projects. And we've learned a number of things. It's also bringing technology to these places that's robust enough to withstand the challenges and just be at a utility scale, ensuring different technologies can work well with each other.
[42:04] James Jenkins: But there's a real need to continue that growth, especially when there's been so much investment and so many communities are so close, with a few success stories and so much pride that comes with this. But ultimately, if they are left behind, the cost for them to power their communities with diesel is not going to become less of a challenge over time. It's only going to become more problematic. And so it's a real priority, and something that, you know, we need to keep staying loud about as well because these are where some of our real energy leaders are living and coming from when it comes to clean energy and ensuring that their priorities have a seat at the table.
[42:52] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, you mention success stories, James, and as we kind of wrap up our conversation here, I want to touch on that a little bit. So you talk about looking at this in perspective of the global stage, and one of your policy recommendations discusses Canada Global Indigenous Cooperation. And you outline that there are more examples of successful Indigenous-led energy projects in Canada than anywhere else in the world. How is your organization, Indigenous Clean Energy, sharing this expertise internationally, and what can the rest of the world learn about what's happening here in Canada?
[43:32] James Jenkins: So we started to learn just how far ahead Canada is in this area through participation in forums like the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, and we participated in a pre-conference with 88 global Indigenous delegates. And many of them were surprised to learn of these equity projects and opportunities that exist in Canada. For us, it can still be very frustrating, so it is good to put that in perspective in terms of—from many other jurisdictions, they're still at the beginning stages.
[44:06] James Jenkins: But we do have some programs in place, and for several years we've been supporting a sister organization in Australia called First Nations Clean Energy Network using a train-the-trainer model. So we've been active in Australia every year. We've been active in New Zealand as well. And we have some programming in South America in Ecuador and Colombia. And over the last year, we finished a program where we engaged with all of the provinces within Colombia with delegates from communities to assist in developing clean energy plans for their communities that they could bring to the government and and discuss a partnership framework so that they could start to reduce their reliance on diesel and other other carbon fuels.
[44:59] James Jenkins: And we supported those meetings with the government as well and supported delegates from these countries to also visit communities and see success stories in Canada. And the US is another area where there have been some really positive success stories over the last few years, and there were a number of energy programs that particularly rural and remote communities benefited from, Alaska having probably a slight majority and then others in the northern part of the Lower 48. I think they're going to start to struggle because those programs are sunsetting now, I think most of them have recently sunsetted. And so I think it should be a wake-up call to our federal government that there has been this investment in the form of grants from the federal government. If we don't have some kind of programming in place, we will start to see that progress recede.
[45:57] James Jenkins: But just in general, there's a lot that we can share with other jurisdictions globally, everything from what a good partnership looks like, you know, what are the learnings for meaningful participation. But we do have some examples that are very unique, I think, in almost every jurisdiction—Indigenous equity in transmission lines is is really unheard of, so so we should, you know, acknowledge that there are some things that we're doing well and um sharing that and learning what other communities are going through in other jurisdictions. It also really helps us in our strategy.
[46:40] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean we started this conversation with you describing what your organization does, and something that struck me is it's a combination of supporting projects and project models and helping things get up and running off the ground, providing education, and focusing on advocacy. And I imagine that, you know, even within Canada but also looking at some of the partners you've just mentioned around the world, the focus on, you know, each one of those individual aspects will vary depending on what the biggest need is in that jurisdiction at that time as things change, as funding programs change. So I imagine, you know, advocacy becomes more and more important as you see funding programs change or even just project structure change. Is that kind of fair to say?
[47:28] James Jenkins: Definitely. And our model is very community-driven with with community-tailored solutions and with education and capacity building at the community level being our our primary focus, which does set us apart from other organizations to some extent, but does reflect that that um every every solution is going to be different, and really bringing up that capacity at the community level is the most effective way to do it. And for these kinds of projects, there isn't one solution that fits everybody.
[48:02] Trevor Freeman: Is there, to kind of wrap it up here, is there, you know, one piece of advice that you'd give to—I know this is a bit of a big loaded question, it's hard to boil it all down to one piece of advice—but is there something that you would kind of leave with let's say a utility or a developer who wants to build a successful and mutually beneficial partnership with Indigenous communities? What's that kind of one piece of advice you'd leave with them?
[48:30] James Jenkins: Um, the one piece of advice, and sometimes I am asked that question, and I know there are developers outside of Canada that are starting to look at our market as things change globally. And what I would share, first of all, meeting with the communities is incredibly important. Community leadership, finding out what their process is for engagement and then establishing that relationship is hugely important. And um I think the advice usually stops there. I think many utilities and developers have heard that.
[49:07] James Jenkins: But what I would suggest based on my own experience is that engagement occurs from the very top of the organization, from the utility and the developer. And that if the C-suite isn't meeting with the Indigenous partner themselves, they should be fully aware and engaged in what's happening. And that's usually the recipe for success. And you know, for these opportunities, many communities have a history where trust is something that does need to be cultivated, and that would be my main suggestion. I think it's where really successful partnerships have their strength, is there's that level of engagement from the entire vertical organization of the non-Indigenous partner. And so when there is an issue, political leadership from the community, they know who to call and vice versa, and it doesn't lead to larger misunderstandings. And it can lead to some of the more innovative projects we've seen like Oneida Storage, and there are many other examples of that where the developer and the community, after a successful project, they sit down together and they say, "What's next?" And they want to build on what they've developed together.
[50:37] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I guess that's an indication of there actually being a relationship, trust built, rather than just kind of boxes checked and a process being followed. But if there's that actual trust built, it is more of a conversation that what next question can come up and there's sort of that mutual learning. So that's great. Thank you for that. So James, we always end our interviews with the same series of questions to our guests. So I'm going to dive right in here. What's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
[51:11] James Jenkins: These are the top uh these are probably going to be the tougher questions for me, but um so I recently read a book by Cal Flyn, a UK author from Scotland, and it's called Islands of Abandonment. And the subtitle is Nature Rebounding in the Post-Human Landscape. And what she does is, in an investigative journalist style, goes to places where there hasn't been human presence for 50 or more years. Some of them are no man's land in war zones, some of them are cities facing urban decay, some of them are environmental catastrophe sites like Chernobyl, but then finding that nature has rebounded and that there is remarkable biodiversity in some of these places.
[51:59] James Jenkins: So the message I don't want to take away from that is that if you get rid of humans everything will be perfect, because humans have had an impact on the landscape everywhere for much longer than we can comprehend. And in some cases, negative impacts to the landscape are because humans aren't doing what they were doing for a long time. So human intervention has a role and always will, but I think it's important to tell more stories that aren't a story of loss when we get to that point.
[52:36] James Jenkins: And for Indigenous communities, many of us have been going through a process of healing, and many of us are still in that process. But as we start to heal and and ask ourselves what's next, that's when we start to think about regeneration, so regenerative energy, revitalization of our culture and and that's what's next and acknowledging that practices that have been lost are near lost can be revitalized in a way that that is uh is incredibly meaningful. And so I was happy to see that story in a widely publicized book because the major story in conservation, but also climate and other areas, has been one of loss. And so, with all of this loss, and and in some cases, you know, a bedrock of tragedy and historical tragedy, where is the, you know, where is the good news story? And I think having these stories about how nature can regenerate is important. It's important to tell that story.
[53:50] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, that's fantastic. I appreciate that explanation, and these aren't supposed to be my questions to answer, but I do want to quickly mention a book called What If We Get It Right?—and I can't remember the author off the top of my head, but it really is a series of essays and poems and an exploration of like, what if we do the right things and we can address climate change? And I found it very helpful to kind of be able to imagine, yeah, this is what happens if we do the right thing, if we can address some of these challenges. So, along the same vein as what you mentioned. So, the next question is kind of the same, but what's a movie or a show that you've watched that you think everyone should take a look at?
[54:36] James Jenkins: Uh, that that's a really tough one. I do like movies and shows. Um, I recently started watching two British series, um and uh they seem to be very into murder mysteries in the UK, which uh isn't something, you know, normally my favorite, but they do it really well. So I I really liked um Shetland, which is a series that takes place in remote islands in Northern Scotland.
[55:06] James Jenkins: In some ways, I think even the setting that it's trying to tell, it resonates with our work in some ways and even the experience of living in an Indigenous community in a less remote location. So I enjoyed that, and then that led to um Sherlock, the the newer one starring Benedict Cumberbatch, which I thought was a very intelligent um show with a, you know, a compelling uh character with sort of superhero, but but somewhat comic book style realistic attributes, but also failings. Um, so I find I enjoy shows that are drawing from literature and putting them into today's terms and not worrying too much about um, you know, what's realistic and what's not, but really trying to—what would we how would this be written today? So I enjoyed that as well.
[55:58] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I like that. Um, if somebody offered you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where would you go?
[56:05] James Jenkins: So, Air Canada used to have contests for that, and we used to say Nunavut because it would get the most bang for your buck. You know, these are $4,000–$5,000 tickets, which speaks to the challenges that those communities face when it comes to decarbonizing the north. Um, for me, I mentioned I spent much of my childhood in Northern Arizona. I think at this time I'd probably use it for that, you know, I hope to visit again soon.
[56:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, fantastic. Um, James, who is someone that you admire?
[56:44] James Jenkins: Um, I've been grateful for wonderful mentors in the course of my career. Um, I'm really grateful that the founder of ICE, Chris Henderson, has dedicated himself to be a mentor for me and has has really he's committed to that um and I've learned a great deal from him.
[57:04] James Jenkins: Working at Walpole Island, there were a number of chiefs that I worked closely with and have been thinking about one, um Charles Samson, who's passed away, and he really came into his own once he was chief. He had run for a long time, over 10 years, and um really learned a lot from him and his perspective. But then, uh other chiefs, Burton Kewayosh and Dan Miskokomon really really supported me and helped um helped develop my uh the breath of experience that I draw from. And today, um the current chief, Leela Thomas, is really showing some really great leadership, and I think it's a real breakthrough in our region that most of the chiefs in Southwestern Ontario are female, which was um really more rare in the past. So that's a breakthrough as well.
[57:59] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, that's great. Uh, and final question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?
[58:08] James Jenkins: Um, I think what I'm excited about is that the door is open for Indigenous communities to really change the way that they're engaged with the economy, um for there to be some real opportunities for business development. Um, you know, for many years because I lived in the United States for a while, it felt like the overall economic development capacity of US tribes was far beyond what exists in Canada for a number of reasons. And and one of them is there were a few key industries in the US that the federal government, um it cultivated at different times, gaming being one, uh but it did lead to the infrastructure for US tribes to engage in business all across the country in a way that's still the exception rather than the rule in Canada.
[59:02] James Jenkins: So it is exciting for me to think about there being that shift and that um truly Indigenous-led projects stop becoming one-offs, um but they start to be that real uh, you know, Indigenous leadership becomes embedded in the framework of energy decision-making. Um, the idea of it becoming a career path becomes more solidified. So I think it was a dream at one point that some ambitious leaders had, like thinking of Saugeen and Nawash equity participation in that transmission line, there was no blueprint for that.
[59:39] James Jenkins: Um, but now that there's been a dream and we've seen it come into practice, so um it's exciting to think that we may continue to see that progress, and then in 10 years there there will be some foundational pillars for communities to really meet their own communities' needs on their own terms. Right now it continues to be a challenge in most places. It's uh, you know, what do we prioritize with limited resources? And um yeah, exciting that this could be a pathway to to start thinking more in terms of abundance.
[1:00:19] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean we started this conversation with you describing what your organization does, and something that struck me is it's a it's a combination of supporting projects and project models and helping things get up and running off the ground, providing education, and focusing on advocacy. And I imagine that, you know, even within Canada but also looking at some of the partners you've just mentioned around the world, the focus on, you know, each one of those individual aspects will vary depending on what the biggest need is in that jurisdiction at that time as things change, as funding programs change. So I imagine, you know, advocacy becomes more and more important as you see funding programs change or even just project structure change. Is that kind of fair to say?
[1:01:03] Trevor Freeman: James, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate you coming on the show and helping us understand the work that Indigenous Clean Energy is doing, some of the great success stories, but also a little bit of the path that's still to be walked in order to get to success. So thanks very much, I appreciate your time.
[1:01:21] James Jenkins: Thank you, Trevor, really enjoyed it. Thanks so much.
[1:01:23] Trevor Freeman: Great. Take care.
[1:01:25] Trevor Freeman: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

Forget range anxiety. The electric vehicle market is evolving fast. Host Trevor Freeman welcomes back Plug'n Drive CEO Cara Clairman to unpack Canada's new EV policies. They discuss the surge in used EV sales and the truth about public charging stations. Plus, learn how low-cost salt-based batteries could disrupt the global auto industry. Discover what these massive shifts mean for transportation and the future of energy. Listen to the full episode today.
Related links 
Plug'n Drive: https://www.plugndrive.ca/

Cara Clairman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-clairman-84967318/

thinkenergy episode 71 (EV-olving Transportation): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/ev-olving-transportation/

Geotab: https://www.geotab.com/ 

Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en   

 
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Transcript:


[00:00] Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.
Hi everyone and welcome back. So, any discussion about the energy transition or our efforts to reduce emissions to mitigate the impact of climate change or even just the ongoing adoption of what once might have been considered futuristic technology, inevitably will include electric vehicles, or EVs as we're going to refer to them today. Transportation is one of the major interactions with energy, especially fossil fuel-based energy that most of us have. Heating being the other one. For the average Canadian, how they move around, going to work, going to school, shopping, recreation, etc., very often involves getting into a vehicle which up until maybe 10 years ago, would almost 100% for sure have been a fossil fuel burning vehicle with a few very small exceptions. Today, while the majority of vehicles are still internal combustion engines, there is at least a noteworthy percentage of electric vehicles out there. We probably all know someone who owns an EV, or know someone who knows someone who owns an EV. EVs aren't actually all that new. The first EV showed up in the late 1800s, believe it or not, and at that point and into the early 1900s, it really could have gone either way between electric-powered vehicles and internal combustion vehicles. As we know, internal combustion vehicles definitely won out, and the bulk of the 20th century was all about internal combustion vehicles, and still today that's the dominant method of transportation. But, there is some alternate reality out there where EVs just always were the transportation method of choice. Imagine what the world would look like if that was the case here. But alas, that is not the reality we're living in. The more recent modern EV era kind of sputtered a little bit in the mid-1990s, there was a bit of an attempt, it didn't really pan out, but really got going around let's say 2008-2009, and it's been a steady crawl forward ever since. But, if you are listening to this podcast, chances are you already know all this and you've likely either skipped forward or are listening to me on two times the speed just to get through this to the important stuff, which is EV policy. You never knew you were so excited about policy. So, most of us, including governments, inherently know that the move to EVs is a good thing. It's good for the climate, it's good for consumers, they're kind of better vehicles. But, societal changes don't just happen, and they certainly don't happen fast. So, there has been a suite of policy approaches over the past couple of years or many years to help us get there and help us get there a little bit quicker. In the past year, Canada's EV policy has changed quite a bit. Availability mandates are out, and incentives are back in. Tariffs on Chinese-manufactured vehicles are mostly out, so things are definitely changing. And to help us understand these changes and what they mean, and also just to check in on the state of EVs here in 2026, I'm really excited to have Cara Clairman back on the show. Cara is the President and CEO of Plug'n Drive, a non-profit that strives to accelerate the deployment of electric vehicles to maximize their environmental and economic benefits. And they do this by engaging with Canadians to help dispel myths and fears and uncertainties around EVs using approaches like their EV Discovery Centre, mobile EV education trailer, and their EVs Are for Everyone tour. And this is really about bringing the EV to the individual, to the person, letting them test drive it, touch it, feel it, ask questions of experts. Now, Cara has actually been on the show a number of years ago where she talked to my predecessor, Dan, about the back story of Plug'n Drive a little bit. So, if you're interested in the organization, I encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. We're not going to get into too much of that here today. Cara is a fantastic individual. She's got more than 25 years of experience working in the environmental and sustainability fields, including at Ontario Power Generation where she was OPG's environmental lawyer and later in the role of Vice President of Sustainable Development. Cara was the 2017 recipient of the Women in Renewable Energy's Woman of the Year award, and the 2021 winner of the Al Cormier EV Leadership Award from Electric Mobility Canada. And as you will hear, she is a big fan of EVs, and she thinks you should be, too. Cara Clairman, welcome to the show.
[05:01] Cara Clairman: Thank you so much, Trevor. I'm pleased to be here.
[05:03] Trevor Freeman: So, this isn't actually your first time on the show, Cara. It's the first time you and I have spoken on this podcast, but you were on our show with my predecessor, Dan, nearly 5 years ago now, and you talked then about how you took Plug'n Drive from just an idea during your time at OPG, to really a national non-profit that's now celebrating its 15th anniversary. And for our listeners, if you're curious about the back story on Plug'n Drive, definitely dig back in the archives and listen to that episode. But, a lot has changed in 15 years, and a lot has changed even in the 4 and a half years since you were last on Think Energy. EVs have gone from kind of this niche idea you'd maybe see one or two around here and there, to, you know, maybe not quite ubiquitous and they're not everywhere, but it seems like they're going in that direction. They're a lot more commonplace. Everybody knows somebody with an EV, or you see them around most times you're out and about. Um, and they are also a very much talked about cornerstone of our national policy. It's an often-talked-about tool for decarbonization. We're going to dive into some of the specifics throughout our conversation, but just looking at the work that you and Plug'n Drive are doing from your EV Discovery Centre to your EVs Are for Everyone tour, how has your mission shifted? Are you moving from convincing people that EVs are a real thing that worked to helping navigate how to get one, what's the complex web of, you know, incentives, etc. What's the difference in your mission now?
[06:36] Cara Clairman: Well honestly, I feel like it's really uh the same in a lot of ways. The big difference, as you pointed out, is that we don't really have to explain what an EV is or that it's a decent car. You know, there's some sort of what I would call EV 101 that most people already know now. And like you said, most people have known somebody, or they've at least heard of it. But I would say there's still a high percentage of Canadians that have never ridden or driven one. Uh, and so that's an experience that we find is really the key, like getting the butts in the seats is really the key to helping people get over the hump. And uh, that's sort of the experience that we focus on. We really try to pair a test drive with every event that we do and encourage people to drive so that they can see the benefits go far beyond just the savings and the environmental benefits, that they're just really super fun cars to drive, and if you're a person that likes a quiet, peppy drive, this is the car for you.
[07:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Are people coming to your events knowing, "I'm going down the EV path, I'm going to buy one, I need to check this out," or they're coming in kind of thinking, "What are these people doing here at this event or in this parking lot?" Like what draws people to your events?
[08:05] Cara Clairman: More more of the former and less of the latter as time goes on, but it depends on the event we're at. So, if it's just they've made an appointment to come see us, which often is the case, we have an appointment system, uh, then they know a little bit, and they're thinking about it, and they want to try it. Uh, if we're just at a festival or fair, which we do, you know, we just are at some event, and they didn't come specifically to see us, uh, then we still meet a lot of people who are like, "What is this?" you know, uh, and so they're earlier in their journey. But what we find is that they need the awareness building, and then they might, you know, make the move a few years down the road, so it still helps them. It's just they're at a different step.
[08:50] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, for sure. No, that makes sense. Okay, so what I really want to dive into here today with you is kind of the shifting landscape, or maybe it's already a shifted landscape, um, regarding EV policy, some of the shifts that we've seen even in the last year or two. Um, so recently, you know, we're here in Canada, the federal government repealed the EV availability standard. So, this was the standard that said we want 100% of cars sold in Canada to be zero-emission by the year 2035.
[09:27] Cara Clairman: Right.
[09:28] Trevor Freeman: And we're moving towards more of an incentive-based strategy. So, a demand-side push rather than an incentive uh sorry, a supply-side push. Does this transition make sense for the average Canadian? Does it risk slowing down the momentum we've built? Kind of where do you stand on on this shift in our approach to EVs?
[09:49] Cara Clairman: Right. To be honest, I was a bit disappointed that they repealed what we call a ZEV mandate or ZEV requirement. We were hoping instead of sort of throwing the baby out with the bath water, they would just make the ZEV requirement maybe less onerous and extend the time or something like that, because the benefit of a ZEV mandate um is that it does require dealers to have the vehicles on the lots. And so it actually increases choice, it increases availability, and that's why you hear some people calling it a ZEV availability standard. Trying to explain it to Canadians because it got a bit garbled in the news where it was like, "We're not going to be able to choose a gas car. You're going to be required to buy an EV." Well, that was way down the road. And uh, what it really did in the early years was make sure dealers would have some. And uh, so that's unfortunate, but, you know, got to move on. So, uh, now we're we brought back uh the Feds brought back the rebate, and sales shot up. So, that's good news. And, you know, hopefully, the dealer networks will make the cars available uh in Ontario. The big challenge is that there's still a ZEV availability standard or ZEV mandate in Quebec and British Columbia, which means they get the cars first. And, you know, you do hear, "Oh, this thing doesn't work. This thing is no good." Well, then why do they get the cars and we don't? You know, so it does work. And so, unfortunately, like if you happen to be listening from Quebec or BC, you'll get more choices than we will here in Ontario, and I I, you know, I hope that that, you know, with the demand-side push that, you know, there'll be more showing up.
[11:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and we've been through periods where even if you wanted to get uh an EV, even if you wanted if you kind of could afford it, you'd decided this is the right option for me budget-wise,
[12:03] Cara Clairman: Yes.
[12:04] Trevor Freeman: you're waiting 10 months, or you can't get the option you want and and so
[12:08] Cara Clairman: Right. You have to be more tolerant of color or features or whatever. We probably will experience some of that. It's very brand dependent. Like, some brands are very available all across Canada, some aren't. Uh, so it's really quite varied. Um, but um the good news is right now um availability's decent, and there's actually lots available on the used market, and maybe we'll talk about that a little bit later to give people comfort around used, because it's really a great option for people to think about.
[12:49] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Let's definitely uh put a pin in that and get back to it. The other big shift I I want to touch on is um or at least it's a big shift that's getting a lot of attention, is the reduction of the previously 100% tariff on Chinese-made EVs down to only a little over 6% now, which effectively opens the doors to Canadians to um have access to these vehicles, so they can be sold in Canada. How do you see this impacting you know, availability and adoption of EVs? Is this going to be a game changer? Are we going to see those kinds of sub-$30,000 EVs on the market? Or is this kind of, you know, one small shift in the market?
[13:31] Cara Clairman: Well, the one thing it has done is created tons of curiosity and interest. You know, everybody wants to know about it, everyone wants to see one. Um, there are EV spies, as you may know, everywhere, like EV enthusiasts who are watch, and, you know, we saw some news report that there were a few Chinese EVs on a lot, you know, north of Toronto somewhere, and people are like, "Oh, what brand is this?" and But unfortunately, we don't know uh really the answer to this question that you're asking yet. Um, we're told that the first Chinese EVs will be here in the last quarter of 2026. Uh, and we don't even know yet if they might be brands we already have, you know. They could be Teslas, they could be Volvos or Polestars. Which we already have.
[14:22] Trevor Freeman: Yeah.
[14:23] Cara Clairman: So, uh, we're hoping we'll see some low cost, you know, BYD or Geelys or whatever else, you know, but we don't know. Yeah. And uh, and it will be exciting to watch, and, you know, we're watching and trying to find out when the first vehicles are going to be available or shown, but nobody knows the answer yet.
[14:48] Trevor Freeman: Are you getting like when you interact with people that are in the EV market, are you getting more questions about that? Are people kind of excited about this? Yeah, okay. That's good.
[14:56] Cara Clairman: Yes. And it's a mixed bag. You know, some people are very wary about it. Um, and what I try to say is look, we already have you know, these phones. You know, so I'm not worried about the whole security and that someone's going to be watching you know, that part of it I really think is a bit of a red herring. We've already gone there, you know, so so and people's information is out there. You know, I mean, so that's not a big concern to me. Um, I think uh the quality we don't have to worry about. Uh, these cars are widely available in Europe, in uh Mexico, and in South America, and they're good.
[15:47] Trevor Freeman: Yeah.
[15:48] Cara Clairman: So, we don't have to worry about that. It's just going to be Canadians, you know, be willing to give them a try, and we'll see. Most people say that they would, so we'll see.
[15:59] Trevor Freeman: And I guess the, you know, it's either you're trying that car or hopefully the presence of these cars, hopefully a little bit cheaper is also influencing what other manufacturers are doing and realizing, "I've got to compete in that marketplace."
[16:11] Cara Clairman: Right, exactly, Trevor. Remember, I mean, you might be too young to remember when the Japanese cars first came to Canada in the 80s. And everyone had these exact same concerns. And you know, what it did was it made the American brands improve. And so, you know, I'm hopeful, and just to remember, these are coming in a very low quantity initially. They're not going to change the market in these next couple of years. If, you know, they open up the door more widely, you know, that's a different thing. But for now, it's a really tiny percentage. It's like less than 50,000 cars, and it's something like 3% of the Canadian auto market, so it's tiny.
[17:01] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Got you. So, the the new uh or the the renewed incentive that the federal government's brought in Electric Vehicle Affordability Program, um which is providing an incentive for electric vehicles or zero-emission vehicles, um there's a strict $50,000 price cap for any imports, meaning some of those higher-end EVs that are made elsewhere won't qualify for this. Is is $50,000 the right price point? I look at just the price of vehicles in general these days, it's definitely trending up, way higher than I would prefer it to be. Is that the right price point given what's available? Is there enough availability under that price point? Um, and you know, does this affect the kind of conversation that you're having with potential buyers?
[17:56] Cara Clairman: Right now, there's not a lot available under that price point. I mean, I think it is encouraging certain brands to bring a version that is below the price point. Uh, and it has increased sales, so there obviously are some that, you know, qualify. Uh, the truth is, gas or electric, it's hard to find vehicles under that price point. Um, so yeah, would I have liked it to have been a little more generous? Sure. Uh, but it is helping, and I do see some automakers shifting prices. I mean, I don't know if you saw that Tesla now has brought out a car that fits just under there. Mhm. So it does do that, and uh it does just encourage people to look. And then maybe they'll buy a used EV. Yeah. You know, so it does sort of open the door, it encourages people to have a conversation, to look around, uh it sparks interest, which is a good thing.
[19:04] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and I mean, Ford is looking at how do we come out with a $30,000 truck, and that would qualify for this.
[19:11] Cara Clairman: And the Bolt qualifies, the new Bolt, and it's a great car, and the new Leaf, uh, you know, is coming under there. So, there are good cars under there. I mean, Canadians do love their trucks and SUVs, and unfortunately, those do not make it.
[19:30] Trevor Freeman: I know. Yeah, you're totally right. Um, so obviously Canadian manufactured EVs are exempt from that price cap.
[19:38] Cara Clairman: Yes.
[19:39] Trevor Freeman: Are you seeing a game of kind of buy local versus get an incentive? Um, you know, how does this come into play? Is that part of the conversation?
[19:51] Cara Clairman: Well, right now, buying local is just about impossible. Yeah. I mean, there's there's literally two vehicles that are made partially in Canada, and, you know, we've heard a bunch of announcements recently that Canadian manufacturing of EVs has either been postponed or gone off the rails altogether, which is really unfortunate, cuz I was really looking forward to being able to buy a Canadian-made EV. Uh, you know, these plans change, they could come back, you don't know. Uh, but right now, it doesn't look that easy to buy a Canadian-made EV. I mean, there's basically the Pacifica and the Dodge Dart. Mhm. You know, that's it uh right now. Uh, and you know, Toyota's going to make some RAV4s, which will be great. Um, you know, Honda just announced they're not going ahead with their plans, um so it's really unfortunate. The thing that I try to remind people is manufacturing is one thing, and EV adoption in a way is completely separate from that, Yeah. because we manufacture cars primarily for the US market. I mean, Canada's almost an afterthought. And so, that's the reason this is happening, it's because of tariffs, it's because of bu- you know, America First policies, it's because of, you know, US politics. And uh, it's really unfortunate for the Canadian auto industry, but it doesn't mean EV adoption won't continue to really grow. It just means we're going to be buying cars that aren't made here.
[21:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Well, and that's kind of the next place I want to go with this conversation is our own manufacturing industry, as you've just pointed out, is so tied in with the United States um manufacturing industry and Mexico. That's actually where I grew up in Windsor. My family is an auto family. My first job was kind of in the auto industry. Um, and the intricacies and and interties between those two industries are very, very tight. But, we're at this stage where we seem to be, not seem to be, we definitely are, moving in different directions policy-wise, especially when it comes to EV policy and trade policy in general. Um, that creates challenges and friction. We're trying to build maybe more of a manufacturing base here. The US is trying to pull that back. And that pull is strong. Yeah. It is, yeah.
[22:34] Cara Clairman: I mean, they have the population. I mean, we can't fight that very well, and, you know, we'll time will tell. I mean, Trump won't be there forever, but a lot of the damage will have been done. And I know there's a lot of folks really working hard on maintaining the automaker footprint we have here. It's a huge challenge.
[22:54] Trevor Freeman: Mhm. Yeah, is there a way to kind of thread that needle for pushing EV adoption? You know, we're kind of falling behind adoption rates that we've seen elsewhere, Europe, Asia, etc. Pushing that while still bolstering our own manufacturing base, trying to maintain these ties with our largest trading partner? Like how how do you I have to admit I'm not an expert on the industrial side, like on the commercial and manufacturing side of things, but from people that are, what I hear is, you know, we may have to let the Chinese, Indian, uh, Vietnamese uh, manufacturers come in and manufacture here in Canada instead of the brands we're used to being manufactured here. And that's something that could happen. That's something that would sort of replace I mean, the ones that are a real problem are the American-made the American brands, you know. They're really feeling the pull to manufacture in the US. Uh, so time will tell. Uh, you know, we may just be making different cars than we were making before. I hope we'll still be making them.
[24:14] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, well and there's I mean, you can kind of see the government trying to do exactly what you said, entice companies to do some part of manufacturing here. They've got this tradeable import credit system where, "Hey, if you invest in manufacturing in our country, you get credits to sort of buy your way through our import market. It can offset some of the tariffs that might be in place." You know, that's a mechanism to do exactly what you're saying we might see.
[24:41] Cara Clairman: Right. And some of those brands don't mind sending their vehicles anywhere from Canada. You know, they're not as focused on the fact that Canada has what's considered quite a small market, um given our population size. Uh, and I think in the future, well maybe the tariffs are going to change if the American if American politics changes. Yeah. You know, so I do think that's possible, um like I said, some of the damage will have been done if you know, if GM moves production to Detroit or wherever else, you know, they're not going to move back. But um you know, time will tell. I mean, I do think we'll have some manufacturing still in Canada and hopefully more than what it looks like right now.
[25:31] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean it'll be interesting to see. As you say, these policies may not be in place forever, but some of the reaction that is going to happen now in terms of do I move my manufacturing base back to the US, that will persist, and you're not going to make two moves, you're going to kind of make a one time tough one.
[25:46] Cara Clairman: No, and especially if it creates some job uh you know, a bunch of jobs in the US, the next US president, even if they're Democrat and they get rid of tariffs and stuff, they're not going to move it back. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[25:57] Trevor Freeman: Okay, so um let's let's kind of zoom back in a little bit here. So, Plug'n Drive, um you've been doing these uh EVs Are for Everyone tours, um kind of as we talked about earlier, giving people access that might not otherwise have access to to understand, try out EVs. And you've been doing this kind of across the board, including in smaller communities. Is there something that you hear differently in a small town, a rural area, compared to a big urban center, you know, Toronto, Ottawa, etc. Oh definitely.
[26:30] Cara Clairman: Well, the big thing is they don't have access, as you said. So in a smaller community, they might only have a handful of dealers, and those dealers may or may not carry EVs. And so they really don't get a chance to try them, and trying, as I mentioned at the off the top, is the key to buying. Yeah. And uh, whatever preconceived notion you might have had, you know, it kind of melts away once you get behind the wheel, even just the reality of like, "Oh, this is a great car." You know? And and so, whatever that experience, or whatever they thought it might be, it's it's gone. And uh, and so, it's a really important uh part of the process. And so, that's the main thing in a smaller community, they don't have that. Now, the other thing that we noticed is how far people drive. Now, people do drive farther in a smaller community, but what has surprised us is they don't drive as far as they think. Hmm, interesting. Yeah. And most of us actually don't drive as far as we think. Yeah. We might sit in traffic and stuff, even like us, you know, in big cities. Um, but we don't actually go that many kilometers, or not as many as we think. Um, and they don't either. And, you know, what they do is they, you know, into town, back and forth, for soccer, you know, same as anyone. Yeah. You know, so for for for sports or whatever for their kids, and then shopping or see Grandma or whatever. Um, and then once in a while, a long trip. And that is a thing that weighs heavily on Canadian minds is the road trip. Yeah. We are really obsessed with the road trip, and it's a one-off trip. And this is the thing we can't seem to shake loose, which is, you know, "What am I going to do if I need to drive to" and you fill in the X. Yeah. It could be across Canada, which hardly anyone does, or it could be like my trip to Algonquin, or my trip to Maine, or, you know, not right now, trip to uh, PEI let's say. Um, whatever. It's like, that one-off trip is so important to people, and we try to say, "Okay, yeah, that's more challenging in an EV. It can totally be done now, but it's still harder, and we sort of say try to think about your car for the 98-99%, not the 1% of trips." I might have even said this 5 years ago. Like, it's still a thing that we can't seem to, you know, stop people from fixating on, and we sort of say, "You know, with all the money you're going to save, you can" and we should talk about the savings because people do not understand that. Uh, all the money you're going to save, you can rent a car, or do something else, or what I do, once every 2 years, is swap with my brother-in-law who's got a minivan. Mhm. You know, and you can solve that problem for a one-time trip. Don't make that that's a bad way to choose a car anyway, gas or electric. Yeah. You know, because you're going to spend a lot more on gas hauling around a bigger, heavier car. Uh, so, even if you're not ready, it's a bad idea.
[30:04] Trevor Freeman: So, in terms of So, availability of charging is one of them, and there's that road trip idea for sure. There's also, I mean, we hear, and me working at the utility, as people are trying to put chargers in, we hear this a lot. People's preferred charging location is at home. We know that, that's where people want to charge, they want to plug in at home. Yes. Not everybody has a driveway or a garage, not everybody can install a charger at home. So, one of the things the federal government has been doing over the last little while is trying to increase access to public charging. Yes. Where are we at with our sort of public charging infrastructure? Is the network kind of built out to handle those road trips, or to handle that kind of, you know, someone who lives in a multi-res building, a condo, an apartment that can't charge at home? Where are we on that front?
[31:18] Cara Clairman: Okay. I would say, as a very early adopter, you know, I had my first EV in 2011, so, you know, from my perspective, the network's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was one supercharger, or like, fast, I mean, it was a slow fast charger, uh, in all of Ontario at that time. I mean, so now, there's more than 40,000 chargers across Canada. Uh, there's, you know, about a quarter of those are fast chargers at highway stops and convenient places. If you live in urban suburban Canada, and you commute, it's basically solved. Like, it's so good. I'm- and then, I'm sure someone will listen and say, "Well, for me, it's not." Okay. There- there's still gaps. Is it perfect? No. But it's really quite good, and you just have to go to PlugShare or ChargeHub and take a look, and you'll be shocked at how many chargers there are. I mean, there are a lot.
[32:27] Trevor Freeman: For our listeners, PlugShare and ChargeHub are both kinds of resources that map out all the chargers, the status, is it broken, is it fixed, here's what it costs, it's really great resources.
[32:39] Cara Clairman: Yes, everything. All the information you need. And all EV drivers will have that app on their phone. Mhm. Uh, then where it is challenging, you know, we got to acknowledge, even like an EV enthusiast like me, got to acknowledge, it's not perfect. Where the big challenges still exist is multi-unit residential, still challenging, and rural remote. Mhm. Still challenging. So, not so much for people who live rural remote, who want to, let's say, drive to town or drive to somewhere, to the city. That's okay. It's if you want to take a really long trip into rural, let's say, from Ottawa to Thunder Bay or Toronto to, you know, Winnipeg. That's still a challenging drive. It's doable, but it's hard. Um, if you're a commuter, which, you know, most of us are, you know, and you can charge at home, I mean, it's done. It's great. I mean, for someone like me, it's fantastic. I mean, I drive about 80 kilometers uh every week, and it's a snap, you know. No problem. Most of the cars have 400-500 kilometers range. I don't even think about it, even on like a minus 30 day. Where where I do think there's the most work that needs to be done is on the MURBs, multi unit residential. And some of the funding that the Feds have put forward for chargers is going into multi-unit, which is great. Mhm. Uh, condos will get done. Condos are getting done. Uh, where it's hard is apartment buildings. I mean, they're so there you need to search for public charging near you. Mhm. And if you're in Quebec, you're probably going to find it pretty easily, BC, it's getting better. Uh, Ontario is still a bit rough, and the Maritimes and the Prairies, super rough.
[34:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, we do, Hydro Ottawa actually was a recipient of federal funding to install public chargers. We did a lot of public chargers uh public access chargers in multi-unit residential, you know. It's so important, as you said. Everyone wants to charge at home. Exactly, yeah. And, it's the cheapest, it's and we haven't talked about super low night time prices, and being able to plug in overnight and, you know, right now with high gas prices, people are looking into it. It makes a difference. Well, let's talk about the price then, that's kind of the next barrier, is "Ah, it's too expensive, I can't get into it." Um, tell us about the economics around owning an EV.
[35:16] Cara Clairman: So, this is a challenge because people see the higher stick- sticker price, and they say, "Oh, EVs are too expensive." Well, they aren't doing the math, and we are trying to, you try to help, we're trying to help. There's other groups trying to help. We have a great calculator on our website to show the total cost of ownership, and to explain that yes, you pay a little bit more upfront, and the $5,000 rebate if you can get it drops that down to about $5K on average. 5k extra, that's the premium, yeah. 5k extra. Yep. Now, you would make that back in 2 to 3 years easily depending on how much you drive, because electricity is like 1/5 the price of gas, and even maybe more like 1/6 now that gas prices have gone up. Mhm. So, if you're paying $2 a liter, um which I hear, is what, you know, We're not far off, yeah. I don't know, I don't buy gas. Yeah. But, uh, $2 a liter, I'm paying the equivalent of, on time of use, of uh, 28¢, and now on ultra-low, 14¢. Um, I mean, a l- per liter equivalent. For the same driving range, yeah. For the same driving. And so, can you imagine that I can fully charge a 500-kilometer car for like 2 bucks overnight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you just can't believe how cheap it is. And if and so if we can get people to sort of understand the pay now to save later, which is hard for people. Yep. And if they lease, it's easier to understand because then they're not sort of shoveling out that money upfront necessarily. Mhm. It's a winner, you know, economically, you know, leaving aside the environmental and health benefits. Mhm. Uh, and so, we really try to help We have a great tool on our website that shows all this called Find Your EV Match, and you can compare any of your own, like all the historic gas cars, like any car that you own is in there. So, let's say you want to compare a 19 99 or a 2015 Civic to a Leaf or a Bolt, or whatever car you're thinking of, uh, you can do the comparison, and it will show you the savings month by month. Mhm. And then it will show you when your kind of hit that crossover and you're in the money. Yeah. And then you basically feel like you're earning money.
[37:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. I will say, as also, as an EV driver, when I I have two vehicles, one's still a gas car and one's uh an EV, when I have to fill up the gas car, I'm I'm always I compare it to my EV that I don't have to fill up, it's it's night and day when it comes to the cost. It's absolutely night and day.
[38:09] Cara Clairman: I mean, it's and also the maintenance. So, there's just no maintenance. I mean, obviously there's a little tiny bit. There's brakes, eventually, even that gets delayed because of the generative braking, Longer, yeah. and, you know, windshield wipers and tires, which you do anyway. I mean, I've now had a Leaf, a Bolt, a Model 3, and an Ioniq 5. Okay, and I have literally never had to do any maintenance except brakes, Mhm on any of them. Yeah, that's amazing. And, they've all been the first gen, right? Like my Leaf was the very first gen Leaf, my Bolt was a first gen Bolt 2017, and uh the Ioniq I think was the second year, which is what I drive now. Yeah. And uh, just nothing. And so, it just to me like, I'm almost like, "I can't believe everybody's not doing it! It's so cheap." Now, I understand some people, if you drive 250 kilometers each way and you, you know, I get it. It's not so simple for everyone. You live in a MURB, but if you live in a single-family home, it's a slam dunk.
[39:27] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. So, we've kind of covered charging availability, we've talked about the cost implications. There's a battery performance question of is this battery going to be around for 10 years, the life of the car?
[39:39] Cara Clairman: Yes. Especially when used, people are worried about it.
[39:41] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, is the range going to get me there, and that kind of ties into charging? Where are we at? Have we seen that technology change in the 15 years that you've been in this space? Where are we at with that?
[39:51] Cara Clairman: Yeah. In the early years, I always wanted to be honest, right, because it doesn't help to be overly glowing, and then, you know, people are disappointed, you got to be forthright with people where there are pluses and where there are the minuses. In the early years, of course, the range was really low, and so that was a challenge for people who had to drive long distances. Now the range of the EV is great, that's not an issue for most people anymore. Battery life, people used to say, "Well, how long will the battery last?" And the truthful answer 15 years ago was we don't know, Mhm because there was no information. I mean, Yeah, we hadn't done it. We thought we knew because the Prius had a similar type of battery, as a hybrid, and we thought it should be similar, and those are doing well. Well, now we have 15 years of information, and the batteries are lasting so well. Now, you hear in the news the odd story about a battery crapping out, and it really is anecdotal, and so you can't pay attention to it. Um, it's a lemon situation, right, and that's going to happen, right, there are going to be lemons, just like in a gas car.
[41:03] Trevor Freeman: Exactly, yeah. You have to get your engine replaced randomly if you have a lemon, it happens.
[41:07] Cara Clairman: Yes, it happens. But the data will tell you, and Geotab has some really good data on their website where they studied how long are these batteries lasting, like 15 years later, and it looks like, for the most part, they're going to outlast the body of the car. Like, 20 years, no problem. So, this idea that you would have to replace a battery is really unrealistic, like, most of us will never have to do that. And no one keeps their car for 20 years, or very few people keep their car for 20 years. No, it's a 10 year window, and if you're like most Canadians, 7 to 10 years, uh, you're not going to be replacing the battery. That's not going to happen. And most of them, uh, sort of a typical battery loss, battery degradation over time is 1 and a half to 2% a year. Hm. So, you're going to see some declines, so let's say at year 5, you should be down no more than 10%, and uh uh, so when you look at a used vehicle, you can do a test on the battery and see how it's doing, something called a State of Health check on the battery. It's a test that any dealer can do, like any service center can do. And you can be confident that it's fine.
[42:33] Trevor Freeman: Mhm. So, let's say you brought up used vehicles a couple times here. Let's talk about that as an option for people wanting to get into the EV space maybe a bit more affordably. Yes. Like is the supply out there? Are there a bunch of these sitting around waiting to be scooped up? Yes. Great, now let's talk about it.
[42:49] Cara Clairman: Yeah, that's a great news story. So, there's there's um a lot of supply, uh, there's, you know, if you think about it, all the vehicles that come off lease or whatever, you know, even there's now 2023s, you know, available, there're there's a lot of availability. And so, you know, you just go on your favorite, you know, auto trader type magazine, and you will see, uh online, there's tons of availability, and uh, you know, what I say to people if they're worried about battery life, they do that State of Health check on the battery. If you're buying it privately, uh, you can ask. Uh, it's only about a hundred bucks, I think it's worth it. Uh, the other thing you could do, if you just can't figure that out or you don't want to figure that out, is just trickle charge the battery overnight and see, you know, what does it say, how many kilometers uh range you have, and compare that to what the manual says it should have. That's sort of a rule of thumb type of test, it's not as good as the actual test, but it'll give you a good idea. So so the, you know, people should not be afraid of a used EV. And uh, also, if you are really concerned, most of them have, you know, the 8 to 10 year warranty on the battery. And so, if you are really concerned, just make sure you're still in in warranty. Yeah. Uh, you know, don't go older than 8 years, and also check, you know, because sometimes there's a kilometer limit and a year limit, so it's like 8 years or 180,000 kilometers, or you know, they're all a bit different, but um check it, and uh that's a great way of sort of if you still have a year or two left on the on the warranty, then you're sort of safe. Yeah. to see like see how it see how it does. And price point wise, these are coming in at like a reasonable for a used vehicle, a reasonable price point. Totally reasonable, you can get an EVs in the 20s, in the well you can get the oldest ones even lower than that, in like, um, apparently my 2017 Bolt, which we still keep and use, we love it, uh, would only be worth like, I don't know, $12 or $15,000. So, they're cheap, and this one got the battery fixed. I always say to people, the Bolt had a recall on the batteries, 2017 to 2019. And most of them got the battery fixed, so, and then the warranty goes back to year 1. Mhm. So, you basically can get a used Bolt that's almost like a new car because it got a new battery put in, and so those are like gems to find, yeah. Uh, so, they're, you know, that's why we're hanging on to ours, it's great. That's great.
[45:41] Trevor Freeman: Okay, Cara, we're getting close to the end of our conversation here. So, uh you know, you've been at this for a while, 15 years of Plug'n Drive, um obviously an EV enthusiast on top of that. What's your general feeling about where we're at right now in 2026? Is it where you thought we would be, maybe looking back a few years ago? Is it, you know, we've got a long road to climb here, where are you? What are you thinking here?
[46:08] Cara Clairman: Well, I do tend to be an optimist, but I was probably a little overly optimistic about how fast the transition would happen, and we have had some bumps in the road. Uh, but I would characterize all the stuff that's happened in the last year or two as bumps in the road to eventually everyone having an EV. I mean, I do think it's inevitable still, and I think most of even the, you know, automakers would say it's inevitable. The cars are better, mhm they last better, they perform better, and even without all the environmental and health benefits, they have a lot of other econ- economic benefits. Uh, so I do think it's inevitable. It has been slower than I expected. Mhm. Uh, but, um, I'm still really optimistic about the future, uh, and I think Canadians are going to embrace EVs maybe sooner than than some folks, and and I think all what's happened with with Trump and also this war and all these things has actually got more people asking questions about EVs than ever before, so he accidentally actually spurred on the interest in EVs, which is funny.
[47:26] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and I think we've seen that over over the years, these sort of starts and fits, and no doubt there will be another maybe slow down, but I I tend to agree, we're we're angling in that direction, and there's really no pulling back now. I would, so my oldest is 13, and I remember probably 5, 6, maybe 7 years ago, thinking, "You know, wow, by the time uh he's driving, he may never drive an ICE vehicle, because it'll just all be EVs." So, we haven't quite gotten there,
[47:56] Cara Clairman: Yeah, my kids are in their 20s, and they both learned on electric, and they both have never driven a gas car, because we don't have one. Yeah, yeah, that's great. And so I am hopeful, and BC and Quebec have already passed what I would call the tipping point, mhm and so I do think that it's happening, and it's exciting, and it's also a great industry for young people to get into, so um there's lots of lots of pluses.
[48:24] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's funny on this show, this comes up a lot, and I think all the things that we talked about from utility space to all the energy transition things, EVs being one of them, distributed energy resources, right like if you're a young person looking of what do I get into, what's the thing that I focus on, my goodness, we've got a whole range of things that are are on the cusp, I think of of really taking off, so EVs being one of them.
[48:48] Cara Clairman: Electricity, energy, there's a lot of exciting stuff happening in decarbonization, and it's a great field for young people.
[48:55] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests, Cara, so I'm going to throw a few at you here. Um, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read? Ah. Uh, so professional or personal? Well, you can go either direction. I'll even give you two if you want to do one of each.
[49:15] Cara Clairman: Okay. So, professional, uh, I read a book called, I think it's called, We're All in Sales. And it really helped me when I was starting Plug'n Drive. It sort of helps you get over this like, "Ugh, sales." Yeah. Which I think a lot of people have because they don't want to have to ask for money or you know, pitch for money or whatever. And it made you re- It was just helpful in that it talks about how, I mean, we're all in sales in one way or another. I mean, you have to sell yourself, you have to sell your ideas, you have to sell something. Some of us were more direct than others, but it helped me. Mhm. Um, um, and then, for women who are entering the workforce, uh, I read a book called The Feminine Mistake. And it's a play on The Feminine Mystique, which was a huge book in the 60s. Yeah. And, I found it really helpful as a working mom, and have little kids, and it's hard. It's a really hard phase. And that book really really helped me. Um, and then personal, uh, I just read uh a book that I really enjoyed, um, uh, it's actually just been made into a movie with uh, Sally Field, called Remarkably Bright Creatures. It's about an octopus, and it's from the octopus's point of view.
[50:47] Trevor Freeman: Oh, very cool. I just saw a trailer for this movie, actually. Finding it.
[50:50] Cara Clairman: Yeah. So read the book before you watch the show, Okay. because books are always better than the movie, and more in depth and everything. So it's a great book, especially if you love the ocean and mhm sea creatures and octo- pi? Octopuses? are so smart and it was just really adorable. It was a really fun book to read. It's not like it's great, it's written really well, but it's not hard to access, it's not, you know, it's it's great.
[51:21] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. No, that's a good one, that's a good recommendation. Um, so kind of the same question, but um, you know, for a movie or a show, is there something you've watched recently that really has stood out to you that you kind of think everyone should take a look at?
[51:32] Cara Clairman: I went back and watched This Is Spinal Tap, Nice. That's awesome. which I hadn't watched. And my husband had never seen it. Oh, gods. And I was like, "What?" Cuz you know, because of everything that happened with Rob Reiner, we went back and we watched it. Still hilarious. Oh yeah, so good. It really stood the test of time, so funny.
[51:53] Trevor Freeman: I've got This has come up before with other guests, I've got a list of you know, those movies that were so great for me as whatever, a teenager, that I'm waiting for my kids, ridiculous though. I mean, I have to warn you, ridiculous. I'm waiting for my kids to get old enough that I can bring them into this or that one, and that's on the list for sure. So we'll crank it up to 11 here. Um, so if someone offers you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where would you go?
[52:20] Cara Clairman: Oh wow. Uh, I actually just got back from Morocco, and it was so fantastic. Oh, gods. It was so beautiful. Um, but I've never been anywhere in Asia, I'd love to go to Japan. Mhm. I've never been there, and South Korea, because also they're very advanced in terms of technology and stuff, and I there's so many neat things, like autonomous vans and things that they're already using there, and vehicle-to-grid, and all this stuff, and at the base, I'm an electricity nerd, so I I would love to go there.
[52:55] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Uh, who's someone that you admire?
[52:58] Cara Clairman: Oh my gosh, there's so many people I admire. Um, Louise Arbour. Um, our new, for our listeners, our new Canadian, uh, Governor General, yeah. New GG. That's awesome. She is fantastic. What a role model for women. She became a judge from being a professor. Mhm. Um, she ascended in a way that not very many people have. She worked internationally, she's, and, uh, she's also a really nice person, a really good person. Yeah. And, uh, an accessible person, what I would say is that she's not at all arrogant, she's funny, she's nice to talk to. I had the privilege of working with her when I was a student. Oh, very cool. And, uh, she's just amazing, and I watch her with, she's inspiring.
[53:57] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, that's uh I I agree, I've been reading obviously about her because she's in the news right now, and for our listeners, that's our new uh Governor General, and if you're not from Canada, you can look up what a Governor General does for us here in Canada. Um, very, very exciting. Um, yeah, I agree. Um, last question, Cara. What's something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?
[54:21] Cara Clairman: Oh my gosh, well, you know, aside from all the stuff we've just been talking about, Yeah. um, actually, I saw a YouTube video about batteries uh just the other day, a Chinese battery maker. And what they're doing in batteries is really exciting with salt, you know, salt based batteries that are going to be so cheap. Mhm. And they basically have it, like it's not this futuristic thing, it's a salt-based battery that costs like a fraction, and so the cheapest EVs will get made with those, and that's going to be a game changer. Yeah. That's pretty cool.
[55:05] Trevor Freeman: It is exciting to think about. Now that we're really focusing on EVs and letting sort of just that normal technological improvement iterative process happen, Right. how quickly we might see some of these barriers that we just talked about get solved.
[55:19] Cara Clairman: Yeah, they're putting their new technology into drones, into like air taxis and all this stuff, mhm. It's now, it's not sort of this Jetson's futuristic thing, it's like really happening, so that's pretty exciting.
[55:40] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, now the energy transition is here, we say it all the time on this show. It's here. It's here. When people say EVs are the future, I say no, they're right now. Exactly, yeah, exactly. Um, Cara, it's been great chatting with you, thank you so much for making the time this morning. I really appreciate your insight into what's happening.
[55:56] Cara Clairman: Yeah, my pleasure, my pleasure, nice to talk to you too.
[55:58] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, hopefully uh we'll talk again in a few years and be talking about how fast it's moved.
[56:02] Cara Clairman: I hope so.
[56:03] Trevor Freeman: Awesome. Thanks so much. Take care. Okay, you too. Okay, bye.
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review, it really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

Electricity Canada CEO Francis Bradley joins thinkenergy to unpack the 2026 State of the Industry report, Forging Canada's Electricity Future. Why is public trust in utilities peaking in light of extreme weather? Why is a single word in the Fisheries Act halting major hydro projects? They dive into supply chain headaches, bureaucratic red tape, and how treating the power grid like core tax-funded infrastructure can make electricity bills more affordable for consumers.
Related links 
Electricity Canada: https://www.electricity.ca/

Francis Bradley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francis-bradley-icd-d-ias-a-3617802a/  

Electricity Human Resources Canada: https://ehrc.ca/ 

Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en   

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Transcript:
00:01 Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.
00:27 Trevor Freeman: Hi everyone, and welcome back. Here's something you've heard me say before: the energy transition isn't coming, it's here now. And that's showing up in a lot of different ways—from the significant increase in demand that we're seeing driven by AI data centers and electrification, to the ever-increasing adoption of distributed energy resources by everyday Canadians in their homes and businesses. Even utilities looking to non-wire solutions as a strategy to employ alongside the traditional poles and wires approach to meet this growing demand. That's all happening now.
01:03 Trevor Freeman: And that really underscores the message that the time for talking about how we will eventually build out our grid to handle the energy transition has turned into the time to build and deliver on that talk. But, as with most things, it's never just that easy. This is all happening against the backdrop of an energy industry that is, to say the least, facing some pretty significant turmoil. What sector isn't right now? There's global conflict, there's a need for bold new policy direction, changing technology—these are not insignificant factors.
01:38 Trevor Freeman: And so, to help us understand where we currently are at and where immediate action is necessary, I think it's time we check in with a two-time previous guest on this show: Francis Bradley. Francis is the President and CEO of Electricity Canada, the leading voice for the electricity industry in this country. We've had Francis on the show before in the past and it's great to have him back here today to chat about some of these issues.
02:04 Trevor Freeman: Every year, Electricity Canada releases a State of the Industry report that serves as kind of a pulse check on our sector. You'll hear shortly in my conversation with Francis that there is something to the naming of these reports. In 2023, the message was "Build It". In 2024, they used the title "Getting to Yes". But the 2026 report, which was just released, has a bit of a different title: it's called "Forging Canada's Electricity Future".
02:35 Trevor Freeman: Now, to forge something implies heat, pressure, a lot of hard work. And this report does exactly that. It dives into the regulatory system that we operate in, the gaps in our labor and supply chains, and this new geopolitical reality that's pushing Canada to prioritize our own domestic production. But it's not all warnings. There is a roadmap, so to speak, in the report that specifies 18 recommendations that Electricity Canada proposes be addressed in order to help our industry thrive. As the need to increase our capacity and meet these rising energy demands intensifies, getting projects moving, getting shovels in the ground is absolutely critical. So, it's really great to have Francis here today to chat through that and talk about what's in the report, and I'm sure it'll be a great discussion.
03:26 Trevor Freeman: Francis Bradley, welcome to the show—welcome back to the show.
03:29 Francis Bradley: Oh, delighted to be back. Good to see you.
03:32 Trevor Freeman: So Francis, it's great to have you back on the show. It's always a pleasure to catch up and get, you know, your perspective, your take on what's happening in the world of energy, and particularly the Canadian energy landscape. So, we chatted just under a year ago, and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that was a pretty tumultuous time in the world of energy, at least here in Canada.
03:52 Trevor Freeman: So, just for context setting for our listeners as a reminder: we had just come out of both a provincial and federal election here in Ontario. Our various levels of governments were responding to actual tariffs and threats of additional tariffs. There was a lot of talk about national energy projects from pipelines to east-west electricity grids. So, with that as the backdrop, how has the last year been for you and Electricity Canada, being kind of the main association representing the electricity industry in Canada? Have we seen some of those big projects move forward? Is it all talk or have things actually happened in the last sort of 10, 12 months?
04:36 Francis Bradley: Yeah, I mean, this is a—this is a really good question and it's a great place to start our conversation. You're right, things have been pretty crazy this past year. But also, from the perspective of energy and electricity, there's also been some pretty significant developments as well, particularly I'd say the people who are responsible for the things that we care about in the federal government.
05:04 Francis Bradley: So we've, you know, we've got a Prime Minister that used to be Vice Chair at Brookfield; we've got a Minister of Energy that used to chair the board of Hydro One; the head of the civil service most recently was the President of Hydro Quebec. So, you know, among all of that massive change, we also saw now a team in Ottawa that actually understands our sector and that gets the challenges that we're talking about.
05:32 Francis Bradley: So, you know, have we seen significant projects moving forward? Well, I mean, part of the challenge, of course, is projects in this sector are very, very long-term. I mean, they take a long time. These are not, you know, kind of shovel-ready projects that are just sitting on the sidelines and immediately you get a go, you can move forward. These are generational investments. But what we have seen, I think, is some real movement by the federal government and a very significant change in terms of their approach.
06:05 Francis Bradley: Bill C-5, for example—the first piece of legislation that we saw moving through—that sent a real signal that the government was serious, as serious as you can be in a minority government situation. Short of changing a large number of laws, they essentially do a carve-out for those projects of national interest—or some people call them "PONIs," Projects of National Interest. So we saw addressing, trying to move that small set of projects more quickly through the process. We saw the establishment of the Major Projects Office as a kind of a concierge for these major projects. We saw the MOU with the province of Alberta also, I think, a sign that there is a real desire to see major projects move forward.
07:01 Francis Bradley: But the challenge here—and this is what I raised when I appeared before the parliamentary committee reviewing Bill C-5—is that's all well and good if you happen to be one of those PONIs. If you happen to be the proponent for one of these projects of national interest, that's terrific; you're able to move through this project more quickly. But you know, the reality is the vast majority of the projects that are going to make a difference for the electricity sector and ultimately for Canadian customers may not rise to that level of a Project of National Interest. And so, all of the concerns that we had previous to Bill C-5 really remain for the vast majority of projects that we're going to be facing.
07:44 Francis Bradley: So, yeah, have we seen movement? Yeah, I think we've seen pretty significant movement. We've seen all of the right signals, but as I said, the government can only go so far as a minority government. Now, that's today when we're recording this, but by the time this plays, we may not be in a minority government situation anymore. But that is the reality; it is difficult for the government to get legislation through as a minority, and I'm certainly pleased that one of the first priorities was addressing "how do we get projects built?" because that's something that we've been talking about for a long time.
08:24 Trevor Freeman: And do you see—you know, obviously Canada exists within the broader backdrop of global energy politics or the energy kind of situation? There's a lot going on there right now, of course, you know, conflict in energy-producing countries. Do you see us continuing to move forward on these? So, the last year was kind of a foundation setting, figuring out how to get major projects done, and now we're moving into hopefully implementation, or have we been knocked off course? Do you see something changing significantly in Canadian energy policy and politics as a result of what's happening globally?
09:03 Francis Bradley: Yeah, you know, again, a really good question, Trevor. Because certainly the short-term challenges that we've seen with now the war in the Middle East and the roiling of markets and the significant increase, I think if anything, it's going to prove to be an even greater impetus for us. I don't think it's going to slow us; it's probably going to get us to speed up. I think it certainly will with respect to our colleagues that are in the oil and gas space, but also for electricity.
09:37 Francis Bradley: I think it's going to increase the desire that people will have to see greater energy sovereignty in Canada. And so, a lot of the issues that we've been talking about with respect to building out, meeting the future demand, and getting things built were not directly addressing Canadian sovereignty, but they indirectly address Canadian sovereignty. And over the last year with the challenges with the Trump administration, suddenly questions around Canadian sovereignty are getting more traction. So yeah, I think what's happening in the world today—certainly the most recent past—is going to prove to be, I think, even more impetus for us to want to move and move expeditiously in this space.
10:24 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I guess something that I think has become clear to folks outside of us who kind of are in the industry is just how tied our energy reality and energy policy is to what's happening globally. And to your point, kind of that global policy, global economics—it's all intertwined and probably people are paying attention to it more now than at least in recent memory.
10:48 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and the good news, at least with respect to electricity, is we are not tied to a world market for electricity and electricity pricing the way like the oil and gas and the price at the pump. If you're filling up your car—I don't fill up my car anymore, I drive electric. But I, you know, I've got family and colleagues that are filling up and I'm hearing, you know, already feeling pain at the pump, which is, you know, the reality of having an international world market.
11:21 Francis Bradley: Our electricity market thankfully doesn't get that kind of—of an impact as a result of those changes. However, what happens in the U.S. with respect to supply and reliability certainly affects us, and it's something that we're watching closely. You know, we've seen cancellations of offshore wind projects, for example, off the East Coast of the United States. You know, we've seen a step back from a number of different types of technologies in the U.S.. So, while international affairs are not necessarily making me as concerned directly with respect to electricity, the North American picture, though, is raising questions with respect to reliability.
11:58 Trevor Freeman: We always go to interesting places during these conversations, right, Francis?
12:02 Francis Bradley: We do, I know. And I kind of—you got my brain going here. Sometimes I like to go down a rabbit hole.
12:09 Trevor Freeman: Okay, so I think that's a good context setting. That's a good place to start to understand where we are, what's been kind of going on, who knows what's coming up. But I do want to spend the bulk of our conversation here talking about Electricity Canada's 2026 State of the Industry report, and the title of that report is "Forging Canada's Electricity Future".
12:31 Trevor Freeman: So, not to spend too much time on semantics, but in previous years, you've titled these reports "Build It," "Getting to Yes" was another example. This year you've chosen "Forging." Is there a play on words there? You know, we're moving into a more high-pressure, difficult phase of the energy transition? Is there anything that we should read into that title, or am I kind of just picking at straws here?
12:56 Francis Bradley: No, you're not. We've been very intentional in terms of what we've been titling our State of the Industry. And so, you know, we've seen an evolution in terms of the thematic approach that we've been taking to this report. And so, you know, when I moved into the role of CEO, we began producing sort of these annual snapshots of the sector. They're intended to kind of lay out what we see as the current state of the electricity sector in Canada and our prescriptions for, you know, what should be done to be able to address our challenges.
13:30 Francis Bradley: And you know, if I look back over the last several years—and you noted some of the thematic approaches we've had in the past—2019 we started with, you know, it was all about "Resilience". 2020 it was about "Transformation". 2021 it was "Renewal". 2022 everybody was talking about net zero, so our theme back then was "Accelerating to Net Zero". 2023, "Build It," you noted that. 2024 was "Getting to Yes," and you noted that one as well. That was an interesting report because it really did focus on—it seemed to have a culture of "no" when it comes to "can we get stuff done?" and it attempted to address that.
14:14 Francis Bradley: 2025, last year's report, you know, as you noted, we were in an interesting place this time last year. You know, we'd just come out of an election. So at the beginning of last year, we put out our annual State of the Industry and it was focused on—we called it "Electricity is Essential" and it really was kind of our election platform edition for electricity.
14:38 Francis Bradley: And yeah, here we are in 2026, so "Forging Canada's Electricity Future." And now, you know, we were very conscious; we wanted to use that term "forging". And forging is, as we note in the report at the very beginning, it means to create something strong and something lasting. So, for example, one forges steel, but you just bake a pie. So, like, we're talking about what is going to be long-lasting and sustainable in terms of our build-out for the future.
15:11 Francis Bradley: So, it isn't necessarily about higher pressure, but it's that it's time to build. It's time to build now, but it's time to build stuff that is going to be enduring, especially given the moment we're in. And that moment includes—well, some things that we haven't seen for a while: federal-provincial-territorial consensus on the need to address long-term electricity needs.
15:37 Francis Bradley: You know, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, we've got people in the key offices in Ottawa, for example, that actually understand the electricity sector, and a federal government that has said that they're going to be introducing very soon—by the time this airs, it's probably already out there—a federal strategy with respect to electricity, something that we've been asking for for a while. So, it isn't necessarily about pressure; it's more about building something that is enduring and something that will last and something that is sustainable given the sort of the time and place that we find ourselves in.
16:15 Trevor Freeman: And in light of that, like looking at the fact that we are hopefully moving into this period of building, of growing, you know, something that jumps out from the report is trust in electricity companies. So, you note that trust is at an all-time high in the players in the sector, even as a majority of Canadians are feeling, you know, to put it in quotes, "financially paralyzed"—and that's from a 2025 RBC study. Trust isn't usually a word that we use for large institutions, large organizations, which a lot of our energy companies are. Why do you think that Canadians are feeling an all-time high in trust in their utilities right now, maybe more so than other parts of the sector? And how do we protect that trust, and I'm thinking especially as we move into periods of growth, periods of change in the industry? How do we protect that?
17:08 Francis Bradley: Yeah, trust is—it's an interesting concept, particularly with sort of institutions when we're approaching it from that perspective. So, you know, what we're talking about here in the report is a specific measure on favorability, and the favorability towards electricity companies specifically. And so, this comes from the polling work that we do, the annual polling that we undertake on behalf of the sector.
17:39 Francis Bradley: Now, polling is interesting; public opinion research is interesting. Almost 40 years ago, when I was hired into this sector, I was hired at the Canadian Electrical Association at the time specifically because of the work that I'd previously and quite recently been doing in public opinion research in the oil and gas sector. So, you know, when we've got questions about what our polling is, I bring both some historical perspectives and I perhaps bring some biases to these conversations.
18:13 Francis Bradley: So, what is trust and why are we suddenly seeing this upswing in favorability? So, my take on it is that it's all about reliability. My take is that favorability is being driven, I think, partially by extreme weather of all things. Because, you know, the last time we saw favorability ratings this high was following the ice storm in Eastern Canada in 1998.
18:41 Francis Bradley: So, customers are seeing electricity companies now, today, keeping the lights on, restoring power following extreme weather events. And they're being told by the media, and they see it and read it everywhere, that weather events are becoming more frequent, they're becoming more extreme, and yet the companies are maintaining reliability. And that is something I think the customer is feeling.
19:10 Francis Bradley: So, like, if you think of sort of a hierarchy of needs from a customer's perspective of what they need from an electricity company—and while, you know, it's going to differ from person to person in terms of what the ordering is going to be—I can guarantee that the top three will be environmental impact, cost, and reliability. And of those three, that last one is actually the first one: reliability. For the customer, they want all of the different attributes that you get from electricity, but the one thing that is non-negotiable is reliability; the lights need to stay on.
19:48 Francis Bradley: And you know, I approach this based upon the work that I've done, as I said, historically. I recall doing focus groups in the spring of 1998 following the ice storm, when we saw the last really major surge in favorability. And I was asking customers about their views, and you know, at the time, as I said, you've got people that are suddenly more favorable towards the sector.
20:13 Francis Bradley: And what I was getting in the focus groups, in the conversations, was people had seen a lot of images on television news and on the cover of newspapers and magazines back when people actually had hard copies of newspapers and magazines. Of images of crews doing heroic things—you know, like hanging off of helicopters, working on lines, and so on. And so, you know, I really do think there is a direct relation between people's favorability of the sector and their perception that given that reliability is so critically important, we as a sector seem to be doing really good stuff. And, you know, they continue to see images on the net as opposed to necessarily in hard copy newspapers of the sector doing incredibly, you know, difficult and challenging things to make sure that the lights stay on for customers.
21:12 Francis Bradley: But of course, it isn't all about simply favorability, and as I said, it's reliability, it's environment, and its cost. And the biggest challenge outside of that, I think over the long term, is going to be the whole question around affordability and cost to the customer. So, you know, you're asking what's driving it, I think it's reliability, but what's the major challenge going forward? I think it's going to be all about affordability for the customer.
21:40 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's this interesting, almost ironic feature of extreme weather, of these major outage events—and you know, I'm speaking from Ottawa, we've had our share in the last number of years, let me tell you—that it does force the customers to think more about what it takes to keep the lights on. And if everything's running smoothly and there's no bumps in the road at all, it almost gets forgotten a little bit. But it takes those big events to sort of bring that back to the forefront and there's inconvenience, of course, in the outage, but it also helps people to understand, yeah, this is what is required for this, you know, a grid that is complex and difficult to keep up and running.
22:24 Trevor Freeman: So, I kind of hear what you're saying, affordability you've highlighted a couple times there in the last little bit, and that's kind of where I want to go next. That continues to be top of mind for customers, and you've highlighted it, we hear that from our customers, we see that in the kind of conversations that we're having with our customers. Electricity Canada runs a national customer survey; back in 2024, 84% of respondents to your survey said that an increase in my electricity bill would have a major impact on my finances. So, you know, customers are saying, we'll feel it if electricity bills go up.
23:02 Trevor Freeman: And there's a tension in that because for the foreseeable future, affordability and the need to invest in the grid to build, to grow—we talk about that a lot on the show about how we kind of need to allow for more capacity, accept more distributed energy resources—those two things are going to be in tension with each other. How can utilities manage that, work with other stakeholders—for example, like various levels of government—how do we work together to ensure that the need to expand and invest in the grid doesn't impact rates too dramatically and impact affordability that customers say is so important?
23:44 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and that's the—that's the, you know, that's I think probably the most fundamental challenge that the sector is going to face in the years ahead, the whole challenge around affordability. But sort of I come at this in a bit of a different way, and that is not, you know, not the question of what the customer is paying but what the customer should be paying versus the taxpayer, right?
24:14 Francis Bradley: And so, the question I have is, you know, shouldn't we be looking at treating electricity as part of our core infrastructure? Right? And you know, we've actually started to have conversations around this with respect to our, you know, our defense spending targets. We're going to go from 2 to 3.5%, but that includes, you know, sort of all the supporting infrastructure for defense. Well, geez, shouldn't that actually include, you know, the defense infrastructure, the defense critical electricity infrastructure?
24:49 Francis Bradley: So, you know, if we're thinking about infrastructure and electricity being part of the core infrastructure, as we do with roads or ports or public transit, for example—core infrastructure that is required to enable the economic prosperity of the country—then we shouldn't be looking at relying solely on the kilowatt-hours paid by customers. Because this isn't simply, you know, delivering electricity to a customer; it is ensuring that we have the infrastructure that the economy as a whole needs.
25:27 Francis Bradley: So, you know, just like transit users today, when they buy their transit pass, are not paying 100% of the cost because we recognize that that's actually part of core infrastructure for a country and it needs tax-based funding. So, you know, we need to be looking at more creative ways to be able to address what that funding gap is going to be.
25:54 Francis Bradley: You know, we've got existing tools; we've got the clean technology and clean electricity investment tax credits, we've got the Canada Infrastructure Bank, we've got indigenous loan guarantees—there's a number of other programs that the federal government has in place. But we're going to need to do a lot more if we're going to actually look at kind of growing the Canadian economy and bringing in the investments of basically $2 trillion over the next 25 years. All of that $2 trillion can't go on the rate base, right? But by the same token, when you look at every other piece of core infrastructure that we've got, it is paid for by a mix of user fees and tax base because this is what one does as a nation—one supports the core infrastructure that we've got. So, I think that's how we're going to have to address this in the future. It is kind of having a clear understanding of what one does as a country for our infrastructure, and so it should be paid for as infrastructure as opposed to consumption of electricity by consumers.
27:01 Trevor Freeman: Now, in Canada—like a lot of other jurisdictions—energy is a provincial jurisdiction. So, the kind of change and change in thinking that you're talking about, it's not just one conversation you need to have with the federal government across the country; you're talking about multiple different stakeholders and players and trying to move that conversation. How do you go about that? And I know you're not starting from scratch; this is a conversation you've been having for a while. What does that change look like in a country like Canada where we've got so many different jurisdictions?
27:37 Francis Bradley: Yeah, well, you know, we've done this before. And we've done this with other sectors. No, I mean we have, right? You quite rightly point out that electricity is a provincial responsibility according to the Canadian Constitution. But guess what? So is health. So is public—I mentioned public transit. You know, when we build the next LRT line, it's not going to be all paid for by transit users in Ontario. Some of it is going to be paid for by the provincial government and some of it is going to be paid for by the federal government. You're not seeing any major transit infrastructure in this country—and that is not a federal responsibility—not being built today without some federal contribution.
28:23 Francis Bradley: So, we're not starting from zero from a conceptual standpoint; we do this with many other sectors, but it is those sectors that we know are the kind of the core infrastructure that we require as a country, you know, from health care to public transit to roads and so on. And the conversations are not, you know, not just starting tomorrow, right? These are conversations that have been going on for quite some time.
28:50 Francis Bradley: But yeah, you know, it's interesting when talking to folks that don't spend a lot of time in this space, they ask, like you did, they ask the question, "Wait a second, this is provincial responsibility, isn't it going to be just like an absolute bear to try and have this conversation?" Yeah, not so much. It's like, this is—we've had this conversation on a whole pile of other files where we recognized that we needed a more holistic approach and a national approach that brings together the federal government, the provincial government, the regional municipal governments, and the local community.
29:26 Trevor Freeman: Great. So, pulling on that same thread, regulatory constraints—we all like to talk about regulatory constraints, it's a reality in our industry. The report talks about this being a system that chooses delays. So, tell me a little bit about that and about some of the specific challenges that utilities are hitting right now when they're trying to get projects moving, trying to get things off the ground, and what do you recommend, what does Electricity Canada recommend to streamline that process and get things moving?
30:00 Francis Bradley: Right. So, you know, and we talked earlier about some of the themes of the previous reports—one of them was thematically called "Getting to Yes". Because yeah, I mean, at least our view is by and large the approval regimes that we've got for projects in this country are biased towards figuring out how to turn down projects. You know, what are all of the ways that one can say no, as opposed to like, how do we actually get to yes, and how do we use these—and that isn't to say that it should automatically be a yes or automatically be a no. It should be a clear process that isn't biased one way or the other.
30:41 Francis Bradley: And also, you know, the way we've kind of built this system over the years, we've got multiple levels of government—we were chatting about that just a moment ago with respect to funding—from municipal to regional to provincial and territorial and federal government. And on any project, there's requirement, there's regulations, and there's requirement for approvals and need for coordination, and so inevitably right off the bat, it's going to result in delays. Delays, as I always like to point out to people, delays mean costs—additional costs, additional costs are borne by the customer. So, you know, if we can address this, it also helps us to address the question that we were talking about earlier about affordability.
31:30 Francis Bradley: Right? Like, how long does it take to get a major project built? Depending upon the kind of project that you're talking about, it can be decades or more. So, you know, to what degree can we simplify this? We've got duplication—federal and provincial processes. As well as, in addition to that duplication and different layers, we've got unnecessary regulatory actions that crop up, and the example that I often use—because it's a real head-scratcher for me—is a couple of years ago, the federal government changed the Fisheries Act.
32:07 Francis Bradley: And the Fisheries Act now protects fish as opposed to protecting fisheries. And that sounds like a fairly simple esoteric issue, but it is massively now complicating the licensing and the relicensing even of existing facilities when their licensing comes up. So, by—it wasn't intentional to make it that much more complicated, but it is almost impossible right now to license a hydro facility. There are very few hydro facilities that are currently compliant with this new Fisheries Act that protects individual fish as opposed to fish populations. I don't know, maybe part of the problem is the word fish is both singular and plural, but that just gives you a little more complication for when lawyers get involved in this.
32:59 Francis Bradley: So, listen, what do we need, right? For years, we've had, in four or five years in a row, either in the federal budget or in the fall economic statements or in other pronouncements by the government of Canada, a promise to bring in a "one project, one approval" regime, which sounds great, but we haven't gotten there yet. And it's something that keeps getting promised year after year after year. We need to get to that one project, one approval regime.
33:34 Francis Bradley: And then the other thing is the federal government has also now committed—they introduced it in Bill C-5 for the projects of national interest—a two-year federal approval timeline for major projects. Well, we actually need that for all projects, not just those "PONIs," not just those projects of national interest. We should have a federal timeline on all projects. Again, which isn't to say that every project gets approved within two years, but like, if it's going to get a thumbs up or a thumbs down, you need to know in a reasonable amount of time so that you can figure out what the alternative will be if it's a thumbs down.
34:16 Francis Bradley: So, you know, I think it's just as reasonable to say we need to know if we're getting approval, but we also need to know if we're not getting approved so that alternatives—and that needs to be done in a timely manner. And so the federal government has permitted, has committed to like this two-year timeline for projects of national interest; we'd like to see that across the board—federal government, provincial governments as well—for all projects. We've got the Major Projects Office that's been set up; I'm certain that already there's lessons that are being learned from the Major Projects Office. Well, let's draw those lessons and apply them to all projects, not projects of national interest.
35:00 Francis Bradley: Red tape reduction—we've heard of desires to ensure that we're looking at opportunities—well, that should be a continuous and ongoing process. And then finally, duplication between the federal government and the provinces—we need to eliminate that duplication. You know, for example, even on things as simple as environmental assessments—well, pick one, right? Let's get an agreement between both levels of government that one project, one review for that project will be sufficient. And so the feds can recognize the provincial process, the provincial can recognize the federal—one or the other as opposed to having multiple levels of government essentially doing the same work over and over again. And again, as I said earlier, as you well know, Trevor, these additional costs land in one place and one place only right now, and that's on the ratepayer, that's on the customer.
35:56 Trevor Freeman: And it's that double cost of the additional time and effort necessary as well as delaying whatever kind of economic activity the customer might be waiting for, which kind of ties into my next question here of we're seeing more and more—and this has always been the case but maybe it's just a little bit more on the forefront now—the importance of energy for economic development, for attracting investment and business. And that's true in our service territory absolutely as well as others. So, supply chain challenges have cropped up in the last little while and are getting into the mix and causing some of those delays. In order to move forward, what can the federal government do to bolster supply chains? Is it bringing more things domestically? Are there other tools that they have at their disposal? How do we go about addressing the supply chain challenge?
36:52 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and this is a real issue—as you know from your perch at Hydro Ottawa—it's a challenge for even a company such as yours and it's right across the sector. The delays and the time that it takes to get into the queue to get particularly for large pieces of equipment, but even for some of the smaller stuff, is simply becoming more and more challenging. We thought it was a COVID-19 blip, but it wasn't, right? I mean, it is continuing, it is persisting six years later; the supply chains remain as challenged as they were, probably even more so. I mean, a couple of years ago we saw a ship get stuck sideways in the Suez Canal and it affected supply chains for every sector right across the globe.
37:46 Francis Bradley: So yeah, you know, we need to be addressing this. So what we're proposing is we look at the establishment of what we're calling a Canadian Electricity Supply Chain Roadmap. This, done in partnership with the federal government, electricity companies, suppliers, and so on—everybody that's got a stake in this—to take a more systematic and collaborative and cooperative approach to addressing supply chains, and come together to identify those opportunities to do some of the things that you mentioned. You know, what about domestic production on some of these things? What about domestic production in those areas where we've got the potential for exports as well? So that would be potentially not only an ability to address a supply chain issue, but also to look at economic opportunities for Canadian businesses.
38:43 Francis Bradley: And can we look at leveraging some of the existing tools that we've got and repurpose them so that they are focused on addressing what would be identified as needing to be in that supply chain roadmap? Let's leverage tools such as tax credits, Business Development Canada, Export Development Canada, the Canada Growth Fund. So, you know, it'd be interesting if there were other venues and other opportunities, but we have existing tools; we're just not, I think, focusing them directly and specifically with respect to the supply chain requirements for the electricity sector and we should be looking at doing that. And you know, the challenges—I've spent time with the steel producers, for example—it is fascinating to try and get a sense of what those challenges are for the partners that we've got, whether it's steel or aluminum or finished products or transformers; it is endlessly complex, evolving, and so you know, we really do think developing some kind of a clear roadmap with all of the stakeholders would benefit the sector as a whole.
39:56 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean certainly those challenges are ubiquitous across multiple sectors, and I think the one thing that we do find is when we bring up the challenges we're having with our customers or potential customers, they all get it, it's not a surprise. They don't sit there kind of surprised to hear that oh, it's going to take us this much time to bring in that transformer because they're going through some of those same challenges and I think the need is cross-cutting to address it. Another input, of course, into any sector and certainly the electricity industry is just the human capital required—the skilled labor required on the design side, on the construction side. Your report recommends establishing a Federal Industry Workforce Advisory Council. What would the priority be for that council and how do you help the utility industry compete against other industries that are also out there kind of participating in this war on talent trying to get the best and brightest into their sectors?
41:03 Francis Bradley: Yeah, no, I mean it is definitely a challenge. It's something that we've been addressing for, geez, probably two decades now at the association. We helped establish Electricity Human Resources Canada back in the day; it was spun off from some of our activities we'd done previously. So, you know, this is an area that we've been particularly concerned about in the sector for, well, as I say, you know, 20 years, it's been a generation that we've seen this challenge coming and we know it's on its way.
41:38 Francis Bradley: We are seeing, I think, some very good work in this space—I did mention Electricity Human Resources Canada; they do some terrific work, they are absolutely a critical stakeholder, increasingly a thought leader in this space. But you know, as you note, we have a very specific ask in our State of the Industry and that is getting the federal government to pull together a senior-level advisory committee with representatives from industry associations, from unions, from training providers, from the sector as a whole, to discuss these emerging labor market issues, to review the forecasts.
42:18 Francis Bradley: They need to address strategies, and so the mandate needs to be very specific: ongoing review, monitoring, and improvement of our workforce mechanisms to ensure that they remain adaptive and responsive to labor market realities. And so, this is not something that the sector and the electricity companies themselves control; this is something that requires the collaboration and participation of governments with respect to the policies that they bring forward, with unions, and with the training providers.
42:55 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and as we look at sort of that next generation—you talk about this being a generational challenge—it's one thing to attract the skilled workers of today, it's another to bring up and build those skill sets. We talk about that a lot on the show about how we kind of need to build those skill sets. So, a bit of a platform for you here: why should someone consider that career in the electricity industry? What's the hook? What's the thing that you would convince them to come? I kind of know what my pitch is, but I'm curious to hear what yours is.
43:29 Francis Bradley: All right. Well, listen, I mean, like, sort of on the first piece, you know, I think this is where the adaptive and responsive comes into play. That advisory council I talked about I think would be able to recommend how we adjust and how we adapt our programs to further, you know, promote the sector. But why would I recommend somebody in this sector, and who would I begin with? Absolutely.
43:56 Francis Bradley: I mean, first off, I mean, this is a sector where we're going to see massive growth. We know that it is coming; we know that we're going to see a doubling of demand out to 2050. And so, with that massive growth, the prospects for skilled trades, the prospects for anybody in this sector is very bright.
44:21 Francis Bradley: And you know, one of the other things as well that I'd like to point out is we hear a lot of talk about how AI is going to massively change the workforce of the future. But when we're talking about skilled trades, you know, AI can do a lot of things, but ChatGPT is never going to be able to climb a pole, swing a hammer, or install an insulator. So, you know, not only is this a sector where the growth is going to be very significant over the next 25 years, it's also one where we know we actually need people to do these things.
44:54 Francis Bradley: And these are, you know, for a certain type of person, this is really cool and interesting stuff. So, you know, whether it is in the skilled trades or people in the technologies, this is a sector that has some really interesting, fascinating career choices and they're ones that, you know, the ChatGPT is not going to be taking away from you.
45:18 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and it is this—the sector is evolving, it's innovating, it's changing, but to your point, we still need that traditional infrastructure. We need that growth, there will be more poles and wires, there will be cooler technology to work on, but we still need folks to install them. And something that I tell people that are interested—you know, a lot of younger folks coming up are really passionate about the environment, climate change—this is a great sector for that. This is a great spot to focus on that; the electricity industry is the, you know, tip of the spear when it comes to addressing climate change—electricity is the solution.
46:01 Francis Bradley: And it will continue to be so well into the future. Yeah, no, absolutely couldn't agree more.
46:07 Trevor Freeman: So, pivoting then to climate change, and we're seeing we've talked here a couple times about the increase in severe weather events, you know, wildfires in parts of the country. Utilities are facing this challenge of not only meeting growing demand but also meeting it in a harsher environment—I think there's no better way to say it—our grid needs to be more resilient and people are relying on it even more. What are some of the recommendations that you've identified on how utilities adapt to this changing world and become more resilient?
46:46 Francis Bradley: Yeah, well, you know, you're right, the conditions, the extreme weather that we're facing is not something that's going to go away. I find it interesting that I think every six months we add something new to the lexicon to try and just describe how crazy the weather has gotten—you know, like atmospheric rivers and heat domes and...
47:09 Trevor Freeman: Derecho!
47:11 Francis Bradley: Yeah, right, like when did we—I never heard of a derecho until it ripped through, I don't know, how many thousands of poles it tore up through Ottawa. Exactly. So, you know, this stuff is real and it's evolving.
47:25 Francis Bradley: And so, yeah, what are we proposing? We've kind of got three big asks in this area. The first one is we need to do a review of those federal and provincial legal frameworks. Do we have the appropriate protections related to industry-caused ignitions as we say? So, you know, if inadvertent but there is a spark from infrastructure that causes, for example, a fire, you know, do we actually have legal frameworks that can address this in a way that doesn't simply go in and bankrupt a company as happened in California? So we're supporting work in this space.
48:06 Francis Bradley: Second, we want to establish formal coordination mechanisms between our sector and—it may sound a little esoteric for us sitting here in downtown Ottawa—but Parks Canada, to address vegetation management on federal lands. There is a lot of federal land particularly, for example, in the Rockies, but not exclusively; there's lots of other parts of this country where there's vast swaths of land that is owned by Parks Canada that our infrastructure transits through, and so we need better coordination mechanisms. And we saw that frankly with respect to the fire in Jasper a couple of years ago that we could and need to do a lot better in terms of our coordination.
48:54 Francis Bradley: And then finally, we're suggesting looking at a resiliency tax credit or some kind of a targeted funding program to support weather hardening of electricity infrastructure, to protect the system from growing exposure to extreme weather. To cover off all of those things, whether it's wildfires or ice storms or windstorms or floods or tornadoes. You know, again, it kind of comes back to that concept of this is core infrastructure; there are some things that actually should be tax-supported, and weather hardening of our core infrastructure is something that we should be thinking about. Is that should be on the bills of customers, or is that something that as a country we need to address?
49:43 Trevor Freeman: Great. So Francis, as we wrap up our conversation here—you know, if we go to the end of your State of the Industry report, you've got 18 recommendations. We're not going to go through each one individually. Is there one that rises above the rest, or let me put this a different way: if you could sum up or distill this kind of entire report into a key takeaway or a key action item, what would that be? How do you kind of wrap all this up in a bow, which I know is a difficult thing to do for such a comprehensive report as this?
50:23 Francis Bradley: Right. So, you're actually asking two questions there: is there one I want to point out or and what's the wrap-up? I mean, if there was one thing of those 18 that I'd say, "Please in the next 12 months, for goodness' sake, at least do this one thing," it would be reforming the Fisheries Act, and I mentioned that earlier. Because right now, it focuses on individual fish as opposed to the impact on fish populations. So, that's one if I wanted one that I think should be fairly easy to address and to move forward with, it would be that one, which I think was number two on the list.
51:03 Francis Bradley: But you know, of all of the 18, they're all about "can we get our stuff built?" and "can we get it done in a timely manner because the customer is counting on us?" So, you know, if one of those encapsulates that, I would say it's probably the first one, which, though talks, specifically to this two-year federal approval timeline. Thematically, what it's all about is we have to move and we have to move quickly, but we have to do it in a collaborative manner.
51:35 Francis Bradley: But you know, in the end here, what we're talking about is demand is going to double in the next 25 years. We need to invest $2 trillion. So let's do this in a manner that is sustainable and enduring, so not piecemeal, not piece by piece. So that kind of brings me back full circle to the very beginning of this report: "Forging Canada's Electricity Future." Forging is to create something strong and lasting through effort. And so I think thematically it's "let's build sustainably and in an enduring manner and not piecemeal". So, let's forge.
52:13 Trevor Freeman: I had planned on wrapping this up with inviting you back on the show a year from now to kind of talk about where we go, but you've recently announced that you're retiring soon—the next sort of few months are going to be wrapping up your time at Electricity Canada. So first of all, congratulations on that.
52:32 Francis Bradley: Thank you.
52:33 Trevor Freeman: The invitation stands, so you're welcome to come back out of retirement to come on the show and check in with where we are, and so the invitation will remain open.
52:43 Francis Bradley: Well, and as you know, I do a podcast, and I may continue to do my podcast on the future of electricity beyond that. Remains to be seen.
52:54 Trevor Freeman: That's great. Well, I hope that on your show, on this show, we'll be able to talk through how some of these things that we're discussing now, how they've been implemented, how they've actually moved forward and we're able to see some results in that. Francis, thanks so much for coming on the show. Always appreciate your insight and appreciate you being here and looking forward to chatting again soon.
53:18 Francis Bradley: Awesome, always great to chat. Thanks for the invitation.
53:21 Trevor Freeman: Take care.
53:26 Trevor Freeman: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review—it really helps us to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

When we say 'the cloud' what we mean is 'the data centre'. Globally, data centres are projected to consume over 1000 terawatt hours in 2026. What does that mean for energy production, distribution, and consumption? Guest Phil Harris, Cerio President and CEO, joins thinkenergy to shed light on something we all rely on but may not fully understand. From efficiency to sustainability, environmental concerns to Cerio's role improving how data centres manage energy. Listen in for the future of cloud computing.
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Related links 
●       Cerio: https://www.cerio.ai/
●       Phil Harris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paharris/ 
●       Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 
●       Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en  
 
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Transcript:


Trevor Freeman  00:07
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com. Hi everyone, and welcome back. Data centres have come up a number of times on this show, and for very good reason, they have become a key underpinning technology for so much of our lives, every time we pull out that phone from our pockets to pull up directions or buy something online or doom, scroll on your social media or new site of choice, every time you use your phone stream a movie, leverage an AI model, whatever you end up using it for, it's funny as I read this list, I'm sure there's like some university student out there who's thinking, man, what is this old man talking about? We don't use our phones for that, whatever the kids are doing these days, whatever we're doing these days with our phones, with our computers, our tablets, et cetera. All of that leverages infrastructure that most of us have never seen and, quite frankly, probably don't really understand we talk about the cloud like it's this amorphous, nebulous thing, but in reality, we're talking about real hardware in a real building that uses real energy, mainly electricity, a lot of water. And this isn't really new, like we've been leveraging centralized data centres for many years now, but what is changing is the scale of the data centres that we're seeing now, and the pace of growth in computing power that we need to do, the things that we want to do, and that our data centres are able to deliver. So just to throw a few numbers at it, the traditional data centre servers that maybe power the early days of on demand online streaming services, for example, they used anywhere from five to 15 kilowatts per rack. But modern server racks that are used to power AI searches, for example, can hit anywhere from 60 to 100 kilowatts per rack. This is great from a power output per rack perspective, but it means massive energy needs, and that is showing up in the size of load requests that we're seeing from new data centres. New data centres today are asking for service connections that are orders of magnitude higher than those built even just five years ago, globally, data centres are projected to consume over 1000 terawatts in 2026 or terawatt hours, sorry, in 2026 and just a quick kind of refresher from high school or wherever you would have learned this, a terawatt is 1000 gigawatts, which is 1000 megawatts. So 1000 terawatt hours, which is roughly equivalent to the annual electricity demand from the country of Japan, an entire country. So given all of this, there are a lot of incentives to find ways to maximize efficiency and reduce some of that energy demand, and that's where my next guest, Phil Harris and his company Cerio come into play. I'll let Phil get into the details of exactly what Cerio does, but essentially, their goal is to reimagine the data centre to maximize sustainability and reduce energy needs. Phil is Cerio's President and CEO, and has been in the networking and data centre industry for over 35 years, including at well known companies like Intel and Cisco. And I'm really excited about this conversation. One to understand, how do we make data centres a little bit more efficient, or maybe a lot more efficient, but also just to really understand, like, what are we talking about when we talk about a data centre? What is actually happening, what is physically inside these buildings, and we'll get into a little bit of that in our conversation. So Phil, welcome to the show.
 
Phil Harris  04:13
Well, thanks, Trevor. I appreciate it.
 
Trevor Freeman  04:13
So Phil, obviously we're here today to talk about your work building sustainable data centres, or trying to make data centres a little bit more sustainable. But before we get into that. You know, you've spent your career, you know, decades of your career at different tech giants. Let's call them in telecisco to to mention, you've seen quite a bit of change. No doubt, over your time, has that changed, like, does this industry change linearly? Does it grow fairly steady, or is it kind of big jumps? And are we on the cusp of any major shifts? What can you kind of tell us about the future of this, this sector, data, tech, etc?
 
Phil Harris  04:48
It's interesting, I think, as companies start, and I was at companies like Cisco, for example, when it was a very small company to when it was very large company. And this should be no surprise for anybody, the bigger the company gets, the harder. It is to change, and they really find that the only way they change is when they absolutely have to, not because they want to, and that's a combination of just inertia and shareholders expectations and a whole bunch of things. So I would say that the bigger the company is, the harder is them, for them to react. And so I think small, nimble companies tend to do much better when there's a lot of transformational technology and development and changes in the overall ecosystem we live in. I think just the second part of your question, you know, I look at the current situation as a point in time where a lot of companies will have to make some significant changes, simply because we're hitting too many walls, technological walls, commercial walls, geopolitical walls, that are really sort of confining what people can do. So I think what's going to about to happen is we're about to see a significant change, and this is not atypical in the industry. If we think about back into the into the start of what we would think of today as computer science around mainframes that were happening in the 60s. You know, for about a decade and a half, two decades, there was a lot of dominance around a particular way of doing things. And then some new innovational technology came along that rapidly changed, that scaled out, and it went from a very dominant set of players to a much larger number of smaller players who could then provide more innovation and more scale and more choice. And I think we're about to see that transition occurring as well.
 
Trevor Freeman  06:25
So is this, is there sort of like an analogous time, 10 years ago, 20 years ago? Are we on the cusp of, like, the big, the big change that we've seen before? Like, what would you compare this to? You know, in the last 2030, years?
 
Phil Harris  06:40
Yeah. I mean, I think there's been eras of compute. And if we say, I mean, we can find analogies outside of the compute world, but let's just stay in the compute, computing science world. I gave the mainframe example as one, and then we went to what we call client server, which scaled out rapidly. Telephony. We went from large, big telephone exchanges that started in in the government space, went to very large organizations. Now, basically we've completely scaled out how we make phone calls to use that now 20th century as a terminology. Nobody really makes telephone calls anymore. And we went through this with cloud computing and the Internet, where there was a change in the approach to the way we did things that suddenly gave us a scale out mentality, rather than a scale up mentality. And I think that's what we have to key in on here. Is it that we can take some of you? I was on a panel yesterday where we were talking about scale, and I say, well, to scale or not to scale? That is not the question. It's how do we scale? Do we continue to scale up, which is the current model, or do we start to think about scaling out, which is a more distributed model? So we go from a small number of big things to a large number of smaller things. And typically in computer science, whatever you want to start, storage, compute, memory, telephony, everything we've ever done goes through this arc.
 
Trevor Freeman  07:59
Yeah, it's it's interesting, and it's, there's obviously my brain's gonna immediately try and find those, those similarities between my world that I live in on the energy side of things. And it's the same question, like, there, there's, there is no path where we're not expanding the amount of energy we need. We're not going to be using more energy. But there are different ways to do that, and there are different paths we can take the business as usual that just grow, grow, grow, decentralized energy production and large scale transmission. Or there's a combination of like, grow those things, but also find alternative methods. More ders more sort of like close to consumer energy sources and storage, et cetera, et cetera. And people that listen to this podcast know I kind of go on ad nauseam about this. So lots of similarities. There another kind of framing or foundational thing that I want to talk through before we really get into the meat of our conversation is helping ground both myself and our listeners, and what exactly we're talking about here. So we, we all use, whether we know it or not, we use, you know, like cloud computing constantly, whether it's in our calls, how we're using the internet, using AI, more, more frequently. Now, what is the physical reality behind that? What's actually happening? What is the term data centre? What is a data centre for our listeners here? What does that look like?
 
Phil Harris  09:26
Yeah, let's start there. That's a great question. We started recognizing that the amount of power and space required for computers in companies and government in all sorts of different applications was getting larger than we could put in a room, in a closet near maybe where people were using it. We had to sort of create dedicated space, because the power requirements, the cooling requirements, just the noise. You can't hear this, but just in my basement, I have a few different compute systems that my wife continues to tell me is keeping my neighborhood awake. The reality is the environmentals of these things became very difficult. So we created these purpose built locations that had then different requirements in terms of access and facilities and power and cooling and staffing. And so they became a new way of thinking about building compute infrastructure at a building level, not just at the individual computers themselves. So a data is usually a very large room or building, I should say that houses large amounts of compute and storage and other networking equipment. There's a whole range of different technologies that go into a data centre that allows us to process information. That's what a data centre is. To give you some analogies in the US, there's about nearly 6000 data centres, depending on how you measure a data centre. In Canada, we have about 400 in Europe, there's about 750 that we can identify as standalone data centres. You can probably find more places where computers are outside of people's homes, but that's about the ratio we're looking at.
 
Trevor Freeman  10:59
And we're seeing, I think, and tell me if I'm wrong here, like, all this talk about the AI proliferation, data centre proliferation, we're seeing an expansion of these. Is that we're seeing the size of these data centres expand, or we're seeing just more of them popping up. Like, what does it mean when we say we're seeing, like, data centre growth because of AI, what does that mean?
 
Phil Harris  11:24
Well, it's fascinating, because now our worlds collide, because the way we now think about how to describe a data centre isn't in the square footage or the number of computers, it's in how much power it consumes, and we now measure it in megawatts, and it starts in 10 megawatts, or single digit megawatts, very small data centres, into average size data centres in the 10s of megawatts, up to now the hundreds and the gigawatts of consumption that you look at these hyperscalers. But I think we have to put this into a sort of a human scale. It helps us to put this in human scale. If I were to go back to ChatGPT actually about now, 15 months ago. ChatGPT-4. If you were to put that data centre footprint into the province of Ontario, for example, where you and I both are right now, it would be the equivalent of a million internal combustion engine cars driving 30 kilometers a day, if you ever drive up the 401 you probably don't want to see another million cars on the 401 Yeah, but that's the amount of energy that we can think of in terms of a data centre of that scale.
 
Trevor Freeman  12:33
Yeah, and again, kind of putting it in the electrical industry's terms, what we consider as a large load so we have a specific designation of a large load request that is anything five megawatts and higher. And like, up until recently, we would get one or two of those every once in a while, like, it's pretty rare to get a large load request. We are seeing large load requests coming in at a near constant pace now, like the number of large load requests we're getting, and a lot of it is because of this, not all because of data centres or anything like that, but a lot of them are certainly driven by that need for more more computing power, more facilities that support that.
 
Phil Harris  13:18
That's right. And at the same time, we're seeing a demand on on energy around now home, EV charging, and other aspects of the general distribution of the power, everything's taking a step function. But if I could just say one thing to your point about before I was seven megawatts, was a high load, then we may need to change that scale. It's almost inefficient to build a data centre unless you're somewhere above the 10 megawatt range, because at that point, get somebody else to do it for you.
 
Trevor Freeman  13:42
Interesting, yeah, and that's where it's sort of like, almost like, renting space in a data centre for a request of that size. Interesting, something that you know, I've seen kind of in your in your writing, on your on your blogs, is the idea that traditional data centres are really built for peak capacity, which absolutely mirrors the power industry. We build our electrical grids for peak capacity, and obviously that leads to a fair amount of inefficiencies. So if you're building just a peak capacity, if you're not at peak capacity, there is an inefficiency happening. There something that you identified. It's a stat from your research talks about graphics processing unit usage rates as low as 20 or 25% so I'm assuming that means kind of like three quarters of that hardware is sitting idle or not being used valuably. Tell us a little bit about what, what Cerio what you're doing, what your composable architecture specifically is doing to reclaim that wasted power and cooling capacity,
 
Phil Harris  14:44
Yeah, and so it starts off with your the premise you correctly raised is that, if we think about the the equipment, the physical equipment, and how we put these devices and these components together in a data centre, the same model we've been using today is, is about 3035, Years old in terms of individual compute systems, where we run applications, software that has memory and central processing units, those typical things you have in a laptop, or you have every computer. But then we put these accelerators, these GPUs, companies like Nvidia now are the one most valuable companies on the planet, if not the most valuable planet company on the planet, because that's the technology they develop. But we're trying to put these new class of accelerators into an existing compute model which wasn't designed for this. So then itself now starts to fragment the ability to leverage those resources in a data centre. And as you accurately said, it's interesting. If I could geek out on this a little bit for the energy consumer in the room, please. Do we think? We think about the notion not only the megawatts of power going into the data but we we think about what we call power usage efficiency. And that basically says, whatever the power delivered to a data centre, how much of that is applicable to the IT systems in that data centre, a good, well run, efficient data centre is about 1.2 that means about 1.2 times the amount of power that's used is delivered. Your home, for example, is about 30 times the amount of power we use is what's delivered. We are very inefficient from our home use, by the way. But that's another problem to solve in another podcast, but in this case, that's all true until we then ask the question, but what's actually being used at that equipment? And that's now in that 25 to 30% range at any point in time, and we refer to that as stranded and idle assets that, for whatever reason, aren't where the application is or aren't applicable to be used for the application that moment because they're in some other box, or it's a time of day when people use equipment. And by the way, equipment like that isn't being used 24 by seven, but it's drawing power 24 by seven, right? So there's lots of inherent inefficiencies in that model. So what we do is we provide the ability to dynamically have pools of resources where we can dynamically attach resources to a compute system as required, at the scale you're required, and allowing you to be much more efficient in the timing of that and the amount of equipment required to meet your end solution. And by doing that, we can increase the number of accelerators that you apply to a compute system, which inherently means you are much more efficient in those compute systems, because it's not just the computers. As I said before, there's storage, there's firewalls, there's load balances, there's networking equipment, all of that can now be much more efficiently used. All of that is drawing power.
 
Trevor Freeman  17:35
So is the idea, then, that the equipment not being used, or when you're at a lower demand time in terms of computing power, you've got physical equipment idling, sort of in more idle mode, drawing less resources that you can then ramp up so the peak amount of equipment still there. You're just being more efficient with it when it's not being used. And you've developed a way to sort of dynamically pull that in. Is that what I'm hearing.
 
Phil Harris  18:00
Exactly, I'll give you an example. A data centre here in Toronto wanted to have a block of 128 GPUs. They could have, they could they could service their customers with, with the current systems they were using previously to deploying our infrastructure, they had to require deploy, actually, 200 GPUs and a very large number of servers in the to house those GPUs. By deploying this area technology, they brought that down to 136 actual GPUs, and they reduced the number of compute platforms by a factor of four. So they reduced it by 75%.
 
Trevor Freeman  18:35
Yeah, that's fantastic,
 
Phil Harris  18:36
With exactly the same outcomes to their customers. With no no contention for resources, no oversubscription of resources, just more efficient use of those resources.
 
Trevor Freeman  18:46
Gotcha. So still able to meet that peak demand, but not sort of firing up that equipment when it's not needed.
 
Phil Harris  18:53
Well, not just not firing it, not having to have as much stranded equipment, because we can use all the equipment all the time.
 
Trevor Freeman  19:01
Gotcha. Okay, so in when I was kind of setting up that last question, I used the term composable architecture, and I'll admit that I pulled that from your material. Help me understand what that means. So you know that I've also seen you use composable infrastructure sounds a bit abstract, like, what? What are we talking about here? What does that actually look like?
 
Phil Harris  19:20
When a consumer, or someone who's building a data centre buys their computer equipment, they usually will actually buy the computers, the GPUs, the storage and other things at the same time, and they will get delivered together, and that box now becomes a unit of compute capacity. But the thing about that is whether you're able to use that entire capacity, the length in which that's a useful there's a lot of innovation churn right now as new things are coming through very quickly. But that box is now solid. You know, it's statically built for the rest of its life. Pretty much, it's very expensive. IBM did a study to take a server out of a rack, these big, six foot racks or bigger, where. These servers are housed with lots of wires going into them, power and data and all sorts of things. It's about $1,000 a minute to take one of those servers out of the rack and either change something that's broken, update something so they just don't get taken out of the rack. Because the average time to take a server out of the rack is about an hour. The math on that's pretty simple. So if I'm spending $60,000 to upgrade a 20,030 $1,000 server, I'm just gonna leave it there and buy another one. So that creates more of these stranded assets. So composability says, Let's separate these things into, as I said, pools of resources, compute accelerators and other devices, and have a fabric between them that allows us to, in real time, assemble a compute system that I need. That's the composing part as I need it, because I can now take the resources anywhere in my data centre, if you've got the right fabric, which we've built that allows you then to real time build that compute system with exactly the same capabilities, exactly the same performance, and without having to change any of your software or the way the service work. Everything has to be off the shelf to make this work, and that's what we've built.
 
Trevor Freeman  21:05
Got you. So, two of the terms, and you'll forgive me, this is sort of a new sector for me. Two of the terms that are used as metrics to determine performance are power usage, effectiveness, and you've kind of talked about, you know, GPU usage. Is the industry moving more towards that GPU usage metric? Is that just something that you guys are kind of leading the curve on? Or where are we at on that?
 
Phil Harris  21:34
Oh no, this is very much the industry way of describing not just efficiency, but requirements. And we use very weird terms for this. Every industry has their weird term. Weird terminology, and we're now moving to the for example, in AI, the number of tokens per second when you and I put a request or a question into ChatGPT or CoPilot or chord, whatever we use, those words get translated into tokens, actually numbers. Every compute system is just a big calculator. At the end of the day, we do, we do massive processing on numbers. How many of those tokens can I put into the system? How long does it take to process those tokens and give me a response? And the tokens per second, per watt is now what we're asking. So how many tokens a second, and what power per token is it costing me to process information? And that's the interesting way of thinking about how AI, for example, and that's value started this conversation will be measured is the most amount of tokens per second, per watt. Now, right now, we're focusing on tokens per second. We're not looking at the last denominator, which is watts. So that's why these data centres are getting so ridiculous. Ridiculously large. And you know, we even heard it in the in the State of the Union address in the United States earlier in the week, where, you know, there's now the administration pushing cloud vendors and AI vendors to say, Hey, pretty soon you're gonna be on your own about delivering power. Because, quite frankly, the way you're going. It's going to become untenable to think about that from a national grid perspective. Now, I think that may be a little bit into the future, but I don't think it's a completely unreasonable sentiment at this point.
 
Trevor Freeman  23:12
Yeah, and I mean, you're talking about, and we talked earlier about the just the scale of energy usage here is reaching a new height, a new level. And if we break it down to the individual racks, you know, these racks of servers or processors that you've got in your data centre, we're now talking about anywhere from 50 kilowatts to 100 kilowatts of cooling need. And that's the big driver of energy usage, I think, is correct here is the cooling need per rack multiplied by, of course, big numbers to get those, you know, 5-10-20-30, megawatt data cetnre we're talking about when we talk about cooling and we talk about, you know, hot spots within a data centre, how does your approach differ from kind of the standard way of doing it.
 
Phil Harris  24:02
So that's a great question, and I think we should explain why the cooling part, it's a bit like buying really good, expensive wagyu steak every day and then having to spend a lot of money on a gym membership to then go and burn off those calories. So we put all this power into power these compute systems, but then we have to keep them cool, and the harder they that, the faster they run, the more powerful they run, the hotter they get. But we need to cool them. So there's this relationship between the more power we draw, the more cooling we need, and cooling is becoming, as I said, that sort of trade off for performance. Now there's lots of exotic ways of cooling computer systems. We can just blow air across them. We can have a liquid like the radiator in your car, or we can literally drop these compute systems into bars of solvents. Ferdinand Porsche, I like to use of other industry analogies. Ferdinand Porsche, the guy who obviously designed the first Porsches and the VW Beetle, realized if I could distribute the heat of the engine block with a horizontal block, I could blow air across it. It was much more efficient than trying to put a radiator to actually cool down the engine block the way that other cars who have the engine in the front, and it's because of surface area. Now, if I've got to put all my GPUs and CPUs and memory close together, either in the same box or the same rack, that concentration of heat needs to be addressed with cooling. One of the ways we can address this is not only to be very selected when I compose the GPU, it's the only time it's drawing power, but also I can spread them out through my data centre by having a fabric that allows me to connect them to the compute systems with the same performance, but now I can distribute my heat generation. That means I can cool more efficiently, just like that Fernand Porsche analogy of the of the Porsche 911 because now heat over over, spread of distance and surface area is a more efficient way, which means it won't mean that we won't ever get to liquid cooling. I don't think immersion cooling is a good idea for lots of other reasons. It's a necessity, more than an optimization, but we can defer the complexity, the cost of those exotic cooling systems if we're more efficient in a way we use and design our data centres.
 
Trevor Freeman  26:18
And I guess there's a similar description there of, if you're concentrating all that heat in a specific, you know, physical area within a bigger building room, whatever you want to call it, that that cooling system is having to work to that peak cooling need, so to that hot spot effectively. But it's not working just on that spot. It's working across the whole physical area. If you're spreading that cooling need out across the whole room, one the peak is a little bit lower, and you're just more effectively using your whole cooling system. Is that fair to say?
 
Phil Harris  26:52
And that's exactly the right way of looking at this. And think about it from this perspective as well. The reason we have to cool is because if we don't call sufficiently, those devices become very unreliable and reduce a useful lifespan without going into who, because they keep this information confidential. But one large cloud provider in the US, for example, a GPU that normally has a lifespan of at least three years, is going down to about nine months right now. And the reason for that reduction the lifespan of the use of that GPU, is because of the heating characteristics within these boxes that are getting even with all these cooling mechanisms are becoming now a reduction in the lifespan. So that means we have to create even, remember, I said what it costs to take a system out of a rack. That means we don't have to apply an efficient and effective cooling strategy, our power strategy and cooling trategy, then we start hitting problems very quickly.
 
Trevor Freeman  27:50
Got you okay. Okay, so there's a mantra that I admit I hadn't seen before until kind of reading some of your material. It's, it's friends. Don't let friends build data centres. And I think it's referring to, you know, this, this move. And there's so many industries that kind of do this cycle of centralization to decentralization, and the sort of data movement went towards that centralization, and you saw these big, massive data centres. But there's, there's kind of a move now back to, let's call it decentralization or repatriation of data. And so for various geopolitical reasons, organizations, companies, governments, are wanting to pull their data back home and have it kind of be more in their control, living in their own servers. So how are you or how is Cerio helping companies kind of get back into the data centre business or repatriate their data without, kind of, you know, getting into the troubles that led for to that centralization in the first place?
 
Phil Harris  28:55
Yeah, and by the way, I can't take real credit for that quote. Cole Crawford, who was one of the early guys at Facebook before it became META, and was one of the leading voices in the Open Compute platform movement, which is try and standardize how we do these things. Cole is now the CEO of a company called Vapor IO, and what he was really saying is, it's so complicated and difficult to run data centres, let alone building the capital expense. AI isn't just one thing. There's lots of stages in the workflow of AI. We train these big models. You have heard of large language models like ChatGPT or copilot, but what we use them for the results of those trained models is what we call inference. Now you'll now hear about agentic AI, where we turn those results into actions. Okay, that's the agency part of agentic. Well, the use of AI in the corporate world is now becoming, as you said, both regulated, but from an intellectual property perspective, it's about how I control my data and my information. Because if I put that all into somebody else's large language model, I basically put. Populated somebody else's large language model with what might be my proprietary information or information that's very sensitive, and it's one of the reasons why you'll hear in the press about anthropic for example, trying to put guardrails around the use of their AI, because they're very sensitive to this. Most enterprises, governments of all sorts, have realized, though, they need to have run this in their own data centres, because they need to have control over this in control over this information and the use of this information, that's the repatriation you're talking about, moving these workloads now into the organization that previously said, Hey, cloud computing can take this problem. We're going to now figure out how enterprises, which are far many more of them in far more diverse locations, can now build their own data centres and get the right power, the right efficiency, the right capabilities at the right cost.
 
Trevor Freeman  30:47
Does that open the door? I mean, earlier, you talked about, you know, if we're talking about a five megawatt data centre, it's almost not worth it. You know, that's just sort of renting space in someone else's. How does that track with an organization that won't have enough data or enough computing power, whatever the metric is to warrant a 30 megawatt data centre for their own data, but wants to get that that control, wants to bring it more in house, is our is your technology helping those smaller data centres exist? Is that the correlation there?
 
Phil Harris  31:18
We can now move it into one of the things that we another couple of terms that may be an maybe not your your listeners may not be familiar with in the compute world or the data centre world, we talk of brownfield and Greenfield. Brownfield is that which is already there. Greenfield is something I have to build new. A lot of the Brownfield world is what is the predominant sort of quantity of compute power on the planet is primarily brownfield The question is, can I take that existing infrastructure and put the capabilities we've been describing in this discussion into those brownfields? So I can reduce the cost of the expansion of that because I can reuse the compute equipments there, I can now add just the discrete GPU technology, for example, into an existing data centre that doesn't therefore blow the power budget or the cooling envelope within that environment, but I can still now start taking advantage as I figure out what my larger plans are, and at the same time, how do we have a tier of providers? I'll give you an example. There's a company in, again, in Canada, think on who are building a data centre in in Ottawa, it's going to have its own liquid natural LNG as its source of power for its own power requirements. Why? Because they can have the power they need as they need it in that location, and they can provide that secure infrastructure for both government and private enterprises, and think on is certainly in Canada, one of those companies that's really seen to be a trusted partner in this. So it will be a bit of what can I do myself? How do I have a trusted partner? We think of sovereign AI a lot. That means trust more than anything, and that's becoming the new mechanism of thinking about this.
 
Trevor Freeman  33:04
Thinking about the environmental impact of tech and of data. We've talked about the energy usage here, but there's also the physical aspect to it. Of the pace of improvement in technology means we see obsolescence, or we see kind of technology being outdated fairly quickly. We all, like on the personal level. We all see this with our cell phones, our smartphones, our whatever tech we have at home that seems to be out of date fairly soon. I think that the stat, or that the saying that's out there is, you know, tech is kind of obsolete or becomes trash within three years. Obviously, this is not sustainable. Is this part of the drive of what you're doing? Is it? Are you looking to sort of extend the life of the physical equipment you've touched on this a little bit, but maybe expand a little bit on that?
 
Phil Harris  33:52
Yeah, this goes a little bit back to that Brownfield-Greenfield discussion. But one way of looking at I guess, is when I put all of these components into what the classic model, the current model, I put my central processing unit, my memory, my storage, my GPUs, all in the same box. What is the thing in that box that I want to take advantage of as new innovation happens, versus that which is happening over a slower evolutionary cycle? Well, right now, if I put everything in the same compute unit. Go back to my cost of taking that box out of the rack. I'm pretty much limited by the slowest innovation curve within that platform. Now as what I can take advantage over time. Interestingly, GPUs are innovating currently at a clip of about once a year. Nvidia comes out the new generation of GPUs once a year, but now we're getting more GPUs into the market. We're getting much more diversity, and that diversity means I'll have more options more often. But if my compute system itself is only innovating once every three years to your point, then if I don't decouple these things, if I don't have the ability to separate these innovations. Curves. I'm always stuck with the slowest innovation curve. One of the things we've done at serial with the fabric we've built and the platform we've built is to allow you now to, if you like, dislocate those innovation curves and those options, so as new technology comes along, I can apply it to the things that are innovating slower and still get the outcomes I'm looking for. And that will significantly increase the existing lifespan of equipment that's in people's data centre.
 
Trevor Freeman  35:26
So, looking at a data centre of the future, and not, you know, not far into the future, let's say 5-10, years from now, are we seeing some of the same technology still exist within that data centre, or is it, you know, everything gets cycled out within like, what's the generation of a data centre, for example? Like, how often, or how soon will we see it all cycle out?
 
Phil Harris  35:48
I think you there's a there's a technical answer to that, and the financial answer to that. The depreciation model, so that the capital infrastructure can be written off people's books over a three or five year window is very typical. So we see that there's just a financial inhibition to changing more or faster than that three to five year window. The technical churn, as I said, is happening much more rapidly in the technologies that are drawing most power but providing most capability. So one of the things that we're looking at is how companies now start leasing infrastructure, because if they lease the infrastructure, they can now recycle that and bring new technology in faster into their organizations. But to do that, you've got to have the ability to bring new technology in and not be stuck with these static systems that we have today. So there's a set of financial instruments, and now with work that Cerio is doing, technical capabilities that allow customers to really continue to innovate. So there's no real, hey, it's going to be all churned out in three years. I'll continue to innovate over those three years, reciting the technology that can stay where it is and bringing new technologies as it becomes available at the right financial model.
 
Trevor Freeman  36:56
I'm curious about what that innovation is. So you talked about Nvidia, kind of essentially a new GPU every year. There's a new version every year. What is the innovation? Are they just is it getting faster and more compute power, and therefore it's pulling more energy? And is that just like a perpetual increase, or is it kind of same compute power, less energy, like, do we ever see, I guess what I'm what I'm getting at with this little bit of a ramble here is, do we ever see that that rate of change in energy usage start to flatten out and come down while we still can grow our computing power? Or does energy usage just continue to grow? Like, are we on a bit of a path with no end right now,
 
Phil Harris  37:44
History taught us a little bit about this. Gordon Moore, who was one of the founders of Intel actually, we had this term called Moore's Law, and Moore's Law was basically this idea that every 18 months we'll double the number of transistors on a piece of silicon. Now, for those in the computer science world, we understand what that means. For the rest of the world, the Trans World. The transistor is the smallest unit of technology within the computer. It's the basic building block of how we build computers. The central processing is all the GPUs. They all come down to taking literally silicon and in a foundry, we call them, figuring out how to make as many transistors interconnect with each other in a in a smaller area as possible, or the most amount of transistors we can. So a bit of a geeky answer to your question. But the way that we look at how each innovation improves is, are we increasing the number of transistors, which means we can do more math? Remember, all we're doing is processing numbers.
 
Trevor Freeman  38:41
Per unit, per physical unit, right?
 
Phil Harris  38:43
Per physical unit.
 
Trevor Freeman  38:44
Okay.
 
Phil Harris  38:45
And the way we do that is in these big foundries that process all this silicon into these components. They have, what are called process nodes and the and literally how we etch a transistor, it's called lithography onto a piece of silicon. Tells us the power of that piece of silicon and the more I can etch. So we get into what we call the nanometer scale, or what we call a process node. So every time, if you really look into the spec sheets of Nvidia, every generation, they'll talk about how many nanometers their silicon process is based on. Because the smaller I can get that number, the more transistors I can have on the same amount of silicon, the more processing I have, but every transistor takes power. So with more transistors, I require more power, even though in the same physical space, it looks like the same amount of silicon. Therefore, your question was a great one. Do we ever get to zero nanometers? Well, no, we're going to hit a wall here eventually. So then the question is, that's the scale up model. Try and make one thing as big as possible. How about if we make lots of things powerful, but we have more of them in China, the last year, we heard of deep seek. Deep seek was a Chinese government sponsored effort to try and come up with a. Much more cost effective way of doing the equivalent to ChatGPT. They didn't do that with bigger GPUs. They did it with much smaller GPUs, but many more of them. And that comes back to how efficient I am in deploying lots of things together. And that goes back to my earlier point about we start with scale up. Inevitably, in the industry, we go to scale out.
 
Trevor Freeman  40:22
And is it fair to say that the power usage per transistor, is that fairly static? Like, is there efficiencies to gain there? Or your GPU is going to use more power because you're packing more transistors into it, and once you hit that wall, that's going to be the power consumption level, is that, right?
 
Phil Harris  40:43
Well, this is the games that these silicon manufacturers, like Intel, AMD, Nvidia, they're all trying to figure out how to sort of figure out new and interesting ways of packaging all of the silicon in these processing units. And we've got a whole industry and science around the packaging mechanism to make those tiles, and that we now think of them as little tiles of processing power, and some that will be doing very specific jobs. Some will be doing very general jobs. It's now getting to the point where the science around the packaging of these dyes or these tiles is as much as the of the of the innovation, as the actual tiles and the processing on them. So it's an extremely complex technical problem, and we are hitting some walls here, which is why I go back to my earlier point. We're now reaching a point where is it just a technical problem we're solving, or a technical, operational and commercial problem we have to think about? And this is that wall that wall that you asked me about right at the beginning of this conversation. Are we about to hit a wall? And the answer is, yes.
 
Trevor Freeman  41:46
Interesting. I mean, I'm always fascinated by like, what are the what are the really smart people in the industry focusing their time on? And it's so that's why we're talking to you. Of you know, you're looking at, how do we operationalize this. How do we get the most efficient combination and structure of what we're doing here? There's folks that are looking at, how do we pack the most computing power efficiency into these specific units? I guess there's an aspect of, how do we cool this in the in the most effective way, like, what's, how do we, you know, drive down the cooling power needed? What else is out there, in terms of, like, we have smart people focused on this efficiency. What's the thing that's missing from that, that sort of list?
 
Phil Harris  42:36
Well, I think maybe what's going on right now. And if I could just add a, unfortunately, just one more layer of complexity.  Remember said we were processing silicon? Well, the Earth's got lots of silicon, but we don't have lots of places to process that silicon. The companies that are formed to process silicon into these processing units, we call them foundries. The world's largest is TSMC, based in Taiwan. And then we have Intel, we have Samsung, we have a few others around the world. Global Foundry is another one. There is a limit, physical limit, because these foundries are huge and they take decades of development and optimization. So if we start breaking ground on a new foundry tomorrow, we'll see output in about five years. So we have a constrained supply. So if I'm if I'm Jensen at Nvidia or any of the big silicon manufacturers, I'm going to optimize that relatively constrained supply to where I'm going to get the best return on my investment. And that's why this scale up model is happening. So given that we know that we won't have any more foundry capacity of scale for another couple of years, at least, then the reality is we've got to think differently about how we're thinking about the processing of that silicon. Do I want just ever bigger processes that become more expensive, more limited in where I can deploy them. And quite frankly, the top 15 consumers in the world of silicon consume about 80% of that silicon, if not more. How do I democratize that? Again, it goes from scale up to a scale out model, where I can use that same processing capacity to produce more silicon.
 
Trevor Freeman  44:20
Fascinating. Yeah, I just, I took us down a little bit of a nerd out path. You had me really interested in that. Okay, so last question here, we hear this term for a bunch of different reasons. Around the world right now we're hearing this term democratizing, happening a lot, and I know you've talked about democratizing, AI, what does that mean? What does that mean to you, or describe that for us?
 
Phil Harris  44:48
Yeah, I think it really means. Going back to my last point about if 15 big consumers of silicon are going to consume the vast majority of verbal supply chain, that makes the. At a losing proposition for the rest of the organizations and the rest of the governments and the rest of the individuals on the planet. So how do we make sure that AI can be built both responsibly from a sustainability perspective, right? And I don't mean just the ecological side, but that's important here too, but also from the ability to I was on a panel yesterday between the UK Government and the Canadian government, where we're looking at how do countries around the world have the ability to control their own destiny? And there's this whole notion of sovereignty and AI sovereignty right now that isn't because people want to have closed walls around them, that you want to have choice. They don't want to be dictated to by very dominant players where they, quite frankly, don't have the buying power to compete. You know that the amount of capital going into some of the AI companies, we saw $30 billion going into anthropic last week. That's actually a small increase in their capitalization relative to the other big AI players on the planet. That's $30 billion so we've got to think to ourselves, is that a sustainable model commercially? And the answer is no. So we've got to have technology. We've got to have the right ability to deliver power. We've got to have the right designs of data centres that can keep them cooled in an effective and efficient and responsible way. And we've got to be able to give them enough power to make them viable, to make them useful. That's the democratization we all have to be focused on.
 
Trevor Freeman  46:25
And we need every, I guess, to sort of round of the point is we need everybody to be able, everybody being, you know, whatever, major industry, countries, whoever, to be able to access that equally, so that we don't have to rely on the major players out there in order to do those things you just said, gotcha.
 
Phil Harris  46:41
That's exactly right. And look, there'll always be a pyramid here. There always has been a technology. There's always still the big players, right? But the question is, have the big players the stifled out the ability for smaller players to come up, innovate, provide choice, provide alternative ways of looking at things, and that's what got to make sure that we keep the and this always relies on some new technology coming along that enables that. Sarah believes that we've created that next layer in the stack, if you like, of technologies that gives us that opportunity to rethink the innovation curve going forward.
 
Trevor Freeman  47:14
Very fascinating. Phil, thanks for your time. I really appreciate it. This has been super interesting. It's not an area that I often get to spend my time thinking about so is great to chat today. As as you know, we always kind of round out our interviews with the same series of questions to our guests. So what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
 
Phil Harris  47:34
Well, I'm not sure I can recommend this for everybody. One of the people who basically, along the lines of some of the things I've been talking about today, who revolutionized the computer world was a gentleman by the name of Linus Torvald in Helsinki in Finland. At the time, he's now based in the States, he realized that there was a dominance around how the operating systems on computers, the things that run the software, was limiting, basically, innovation choice and forcing us down a very closed path. So he wrote something called Linux, which was a new operating system. So be on your phone, your TV, your microwave that's running Linux today. Interesting because there wasn't an operating system that we could then generally deploy. That meant there was more developers had the ability to write applications, more hardware vendors could now have software they could run on their on their platforms. He gave the world a new innovation curve. And every time this happens to my last point, good things happen. Very good things happen for the world, for every individual on the planet. And Linus was one of those individuals who saw that need. And so his book, just for fun, and he's a very quirky guy, as you can probably imagine, is a great book about his philosophical approach to what it takes to change really big problems. And I would encourage all of you just to even just read the first few chapters. It's a fascinating view of how an incredibly smart man, smart individual took on probably one of the biggest problems we had in the 20th and 21st Century of computing, and solved it by recognizing you take a different path.
 
Trevor Freeman  49:11
Yeah, very cool.
 
Phil Harris  49:12
As far as shows, um, I don't know. I'm one of these guys. I've got two 13 year old daughters. So my wife and I get to watch TV for a very limited amount of time where we can watch it, about the things we want to watch, so we tend to sort of cram things in. But I'm a huge Aaron Sorkin fan, so if I ever need something on a rainy day to go back just to think about how the world could be, I watch the West Wing. It's a show that's imaginary. It's got incredible script writing, it's got incredible character development, but it really talks about how to think about doing the right thing as well. Now, whether you agree with the politics or not, that's a different question, but just the thought that smart thinking solves big problems, again, sort of It's a bit like the Linus Torvald book. It just speaks to me about sometimes we can solve big problems. With individuals or people who just had the right way of thinking about things.
 
Trevor Freeman  50:00
Yeah, I think that's the kind of, you know, call it entertainment, because it is entertainment, but it's the entertainment that sticks with you, and that we go back to time and again, is the ones that we can also, like, see the the underlying philosophy, or, you know, theory of change that goes into that entertainment. And it's, it's fun to watch. It's, you know, either humorous or dramatic or whatever, but there's still that underlying message. And I think, yeah, West Wing is a great example of of that. There's a handful of those other sort of classic shows that are in that line too. A free round trip flight anywhere in the world. Where would you go?
 
Phil Harris  50:40
This is hard. My wife and I were talking about this the other day, and I've had the luxury of traveling just about everywhere. I think there's 15 countries on the planet I haven't been to, but if I ever want to go to one place is Bali. And there's two reasons. One, my wife and I went there for a honeymoon, and it was the beginning of the most important chapter of my life by far. And secondly, it's because it has that balance of everything. It's I love to scuba dive. I love the rainforests, the jungle, the architecture, the people, the food. It just brings everything into one package for me. And so it just again. It's those things that sort of speak to you emotionally and also intellectually. It's one of those things that I could always go back too.
 
Trevor Freeman  51:26
Fantastic. Who is someone that you admire?
 
Phil Harris  51:29
In history or today?
 
Trevor Freeman  51:32
You pick, anything.
 
Phil Harris  51:33
that's fascinating. I think historically it's under Brit it's hard not to go back to some of my forebears, or my country's forebears, Alan Turing, who, against all adversity, social, political, technical, came up with an inspirational way of thinking about solving what are deemed to be unsolvable. And again, it's a tragic story. I think we've all, if you see the movie that was made about his life, it's a very tragic story, but it's an inspirational story about how, again, if you just take a different approach to solving what seems to be an unsolvable problem, you can you get smart people together. Doesn't have to be a big army of people. I think so. Turing is one of those people that always comes back for me t think, wow, if I could have just some of his courage and some of his imagination and some of his intellect, I'd be a very happy person.
 
Trevor Freeman  52:29
Yeah, and it's almost, I mean, obviously, a brilliant man, but it's the willing to think in a different way, or willing to approach a problem in a different way that I mean, there's a long list in history of major turning points that are as a result of someone thinking in a different way or doing something in a different way. And I think that's a great example of it.
 
Phil Harris  52:49
Just about the entire course of human life are in the midpoint of the 20th century, change on that, that man's inspiration, that man's imagination.
 
Trevor Freeman  52:57
Yeah, and that's, that's not an understatement. That's fantastic. Okay, last question, what's something about, kind of the energy sector, or, you know, your sector that that you're really excited about, or something that you see in the future that you're really excited about?
 
Phil Harris  53:09
Actually, I see it now, to be honest, there are things in the future. Hey, I have two 13 year old kids. I want to have a sustainable ecology and world environment for them to live in and bring their own families up in. And I think about how we can use power more efficiently, but how we can make it look sustainability is important. I want to see renewable, sustainable energy for the general world as a thesis right now. It's how we can be much more efficient in the use of power and the right power delivery. And I think, as I said, I gave the think on example, that's incredibly exciting, because now, if we can do that at scale, that's an opportunity to do that democratization that I spoke about. So when I think about the things that really excited me about the data centre world, the world I live in, actually that power generation and power availability in a clean, effective, well managed fashion is exactly what we need right now, while the rest of us are solving these transistor problems.
 
Trevor Freeman  54:04
Yeah, it's, I mean, our listeners are probably going to roll their eyes, because I say this all the time, but one of the things that excites me the most is seeing like we're in a period of change, and that's a really exciting time to be working in this and I kind of hear that from you in your sector as well, and I see it in mine, in the energy sector of we're actually getting to see some of this innovation, some of these like leaps and bounds forward. That's not to say there aren't still problems. It's not to say there aren't steps backwards as well. But it's very cool to be working on this in a time when we're seeing that change, and that's kind of what I'm hearing from you as well. Indeed. Awesome. Phil, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. This has been great. Chatting with you.
 
Phil Harris  54:42
Trevor, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you.
 
Trevor Freeman  54:44
Fantastic. Take care.
 
Phil Harris  54:46
Take care.
 
Trevor Freeman  54:47
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you whether. Feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenerg@hydroottawa.com.

How are we preparing the next generation of energy professionals? Kieran Graham, student of the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program at Carleton University, is set to embark on his career in the energy sector. Kieran joins thinkenergy to chat about his studies, from thermodynamics to power generation, regulatory to economic aspects, and what's on the horizon for the industry and his future. Listen in for a fresh perspective on the future of energy with a next-gen energy professional.

Related links:

Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program, Carleton University:
https://admissions.carleton.ca/programs/sustainable-and-renewable-energy-engineering/

APEX Lab, Carleton University: https://carleton.ca/apex/

Kieran Graham on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kierangraham1/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ 
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman  00:07
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone and welcome back. We know that we are already in this period of change that we call the energy transition, but this is not a short term thing. We will be in this period of change for years and likely decades to come. And that means that the next generation of energy professionals, so engineers, policy experts, customer focused, people, finance and so on and so on, they might spend their entire careers working on this. So I thought it would be interesting to check in with someone who's just about to enter the workforce to find out how we're preparing that next generation to dive head first into this challenge and hopefully bring innovative and exciting solutions to the table. This is a career and society defining challenge. This is something that we'll be focusing on for many, many years to come. So I really wanted to understand what is that next generation learning. Now I'm sure you'd all agree that what you learn in your formal schooling is only one small part of the knowledge base and skill set that is important for contributing in a meaningful way. I know that the things I became really excited about and passionate about as I was getting through my engineering degree really helped set my course and have led me to where I am today, and definitely was not the course I thought I was on when I started engineering school. And for the record, these things that I became really passionate exciting about weren't, you know, the fluid dynamics and soil mechanics and thermodynamics and all these courses I was taking. It was the concepts and the way of thinking and the things I became passionate about. So all that being said, I'm pretty excited today to talk to my guests about what he has been learning and how he thinks that's setting him up for a career focused on energy. Kieran Graham is in his final year of his degree at Carleton University here in Ottawa, and he's in the sustainable and renewable energy engineering program. I love the fact that we have a whole focus program on clean and renewable energy, that's fantastic. Kieran is the president of the Sustainable and Renewable Engineering Society, and he helps organize academic social and networking events for students in that program and others that are interested in sustainable and renewable energy. He has worked with the apex lab at Carleton, doing research on various carbon capture technologies, and he was also the organizer, or one of the organizers, for the 2026 Ontario Engineering Competition. Kieran Graham, welcome to the show.
 
Kieran Graham  02:48
Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited.
 
Trevor Freeman  02:50
So Kieran, let's start with a little bit of background on your program at University. So you're in the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program at Carleton University. Tell us a little bit about what that program is and what you focus on.
 
Kieran Graham  03:03
Yeah, so I will admit it's a little confusing at first, like Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering, the long name, and then we have two streams. So one's called Smart Technologies for Power Generation Distribution, the other one's about efficient energy conversion. So the easiest way to actually differentiate these two is electrical and mechanical. So smart technologies is electrical efficient conversion is a more mechanical. So like, if you have know anything about engineering disciplines, it's electrical and mechanical.
 
Trevor Freeman  03:35
Gotcha
 
Kieran Graham  03:36
Also, by the way, SREE is short form for sustainable renewable energy engineering, just to save us some fumbling over our words, in the future, perfect.
 
Trevor Freeman  03:45
This is a very acronym heavy podcast at time, so I appreciate you spelling that out for us. So when we when we hear SREE, you're talking about the program, gotcha. So give us an idea of, like, what's the focus of the program more broadly?
 
Kieran Graham  03:58
Yeah, so like, I'm in the electrical stream. So I take a lot of different courses at the beginning, ranging from fluid mechanics, and we take electrical courses like circuits and signals and just Electronics One. But then we also later take courses that are more SREE specific, that are more focused on learning how we are using thermodynamics to then put it through as a turbine and then create that energy. And then, how is it work, specifically with a nuclear power plant, or we even learn a little bit about natural gas, but just for context. And then, how does that differ from generating electricity with wind in a wind turbine. It's pretty similar, but like, how where's the difference? And like, how do we apply that in different scenarios?
 
Trevor Freeman  04:48
Got you so if I could say that back to you. You know, when I was in energy or engineering school, I learned a lot about those fundamentals. I learned, we know, we did thermodynamics, we did all that kind. Of stuff we just mentioned, but the application to power generation, and the renewable aspect of it, the sustainability side, that was all stuff I learned later in my career. You're building that into your programs. Kind of built that into what you're learning. So you're learning the more traditional engineering side of things, the thermodynamics and how this stuff works, but in the context of power generation, I assume, you know, like application of power generation, like how the grid works, things like that.
 
Kieran Graham  05:28
Yeah, exactly. So we take a little bits of courses that other programs will take, and then I got, first we're taking those same courses, and then we take other courses that are really specific, and we apply them to sustainable and renewable energy engineering. The other thing is, later in our degree, we also apply things on a more higher level, like energy is kind of like a high level topic. There's so many things that are happening and there's a lot of regulatory and economic aspects to it. So we have to look at, like, the energy market and like, yes, like nuclear fusion is like a great option if it works and if it's economically viable. And you know, nuclear has its own regulatory aspect, so we have that coverage of information and knowledge later in the years.
 
Trevor Freeman  06:17
Gotcha so. And for our listeners out there who are not kind of engineering nerds like Kieran and I. One of the things how I describe engineering more broadly is that it's sort of a systems thinking approach to things. So understanding, what are my inputs? What's the result of those inputs? What does that mean for the output? What are the feedback loops? And so what I'm hearing you say, Kieran, is that it's bringing that into the energy sector, the energy industry, which is fantastic, like, really exciting to hear that this is, this is what you're learning, and this is what the next sort of generation of engineers is being taught right now. How did you end up in this program? What drew you to this particular field of engineering?
 
Kieran Graham  07:01
Yeah, so it's a little complicated, because when I applied to university, I knew I wanted to stay in Ottawa, and my parents both went to Carleton. My grandpa worked at Carleton like when it was first established, so I had deep roots there. And in my mind, Carleton is a superior University in Ottawa. I know that's controversial, but, you know, it's okay. But anyways, I applied to three different engineerings at Carleton, and my first choice was actually aerospace engineering, because in high school, it was kind of like a this was the prestige of making aerospace engineering. And I actually got in and my first year I was in aerospace engineering, but at Carleton, first year, engineering is all general. So after first year, I decided that my goals, and I don't want to talk down to my aerospace colleagues, but my morals and my aspirations were more set towards a sustainable and renewable energy engineering focus. So sustainable renewable energy engineering was my second choice going into Carleton, so it's a pretty easy switch in second year, but from my childhood, I had an aunt who worked for Greenpeace Canada and also just learning about sustainability in my house and at school, this just seemed like a natural, good choice.
 
Trevor Freeman  08:28
My journey, and we won't get into the details of my journey, but it echoes that a lot of kind of having an idea going into engineering school and at some point, realizing that maybe this doesn't line up with my values, or what I want to do, the impact that I want to have. And that kind of gets into my next question of, you know, generally, the engineering profession is built around having an impact, a positive impact on society, on people, and using a, like I said, systems thinking approach to that. That's sort of the bar that we try and live up to. So, you know, you talked about wanting to have an impact. What does that impact me? Or what is having a positive impact mean for you, and how do you see yourself contributing as you're nearing the end of your education, at least formal education side of your undergrad?
 
Kieran Graham  09:14
Yeah, so I actually just took my engineering professional practices course, which I learned about the code of ethics and how the engineers duty is paramount to serving the public. And I think that actually really resonated with me as much as you know, the course is a lot of just talking about regulatory stuff, it actually was refreshing and good to hear that that's like the regulatory view on what engineering should be, because my personal goals are very much to have a positive and strong impact on society, and specifically like my local community. You know, my family's deeply rooted in Ottawa, so I want to have a good, positive impact. Impact on Ottawa. So I guess when I switched from aerospace to sustainable energy, I decided that, like, there's a climate crisis right now, and I just saw the opportunity to create a large positive impact within engineering, which I was really enjoying and helped solve those problems of having that net zero or clean energy solution, which was being so, like, stressed upon within, like, my whole life,
 
Trevor Freeman  10:31
That's great, yeah. I mean, it's, it's definitely, in my opinion, and I think this has been echoed a lot on this podcast, is, you know, the energy transition, the climate crisis, and sort of our reaction to that is definitely, the defining challenge of our of our time right now, and certainly, certainly your career, probably moving forward in this field. So looking at the energy transition, what skills or knowledge do you think you've developed throughout the last couple of years in your undergrad that have prepared you to contribute to this. You know, rapidly changing industry that the electricity sector, the energy sector of today is not the same as it was five years ago, and it won't be the same in five years. So coming into it at this point, what do you think you're bringing to the table that's going to help contribute to that?
 
Kieran Graham  11:23
Yeah. So, I mean, it's the whole point of the program. And you know, people running, I'll shout out Ahmed Abdullah, a professor who's really been heading the SREE  program. And so the, really, the big goal of SREE is like to be multidisciplinary, and being able to approach all the different aspects of this climate crisis and energy transition. You need to be able to understand how, like, I said, like the mechanical thermodynamics and fluid dynamics work, but also understand how a electric generator works, and then how transmission works, and need to understand, like, what's the point of creating solar in the desert, if you have to then transfer it all the way to, I don't know, somewhere in Europe, or something like, those are the large scale aspects that you need to be able to understand. The other thing that's also really important is just having the knowledge of understanding how like load profiles work and how data analysis and understanding like this is what a good load profile looks like. This is a problem like the duck curve or problems like this, like that, we as three engineers really understand, like how these different problems are created, and then how we can fix them and where they're being affected, like the duck curve in California, and like in Canada, we have a winter peaking system. Like all these problems are different, different aspects that we are very knowledgeable on and already have a base understanding of. And I think that's what's really important and helpful going into this industry.
 
Trevor Freeman  13:04
Yeah, that's great. Has there been a time during your program, during your undergrad, or a project that you've worked on that has really kind of changed the way you view energy or the electricity grid, or open your eyes to something that you weren't aware of before, really kind of, yeah, drove your passion for it?
 
Kieran Graham  13:27
Yeah, so, you know, there's been many problems and projects that I've had throughout my degree, and you know, the view and impact on my motivation has been very hopeful and very doubtful in equal amounts. But I would say maybe more helpful hopeful in the in the future, just because sometimes in school, things get a little stressful and blow up in proportion. But I'd say my biggest hopeful, I guess, and changing my my view of things would be my capstone project. So the capstone project that I'm working on currently is focusing on a net zero 2050 Ottawa. And how are we going to prepare for that? How are we going to handle the generation for that? How are we going to get energy places? How are we going to handle the winter peaks of electrifying, heating. How are we going to deal with EVs? It's a never ending puzzle slash scavenger hunt of finding data and how do things work together? How do we piece it together? Yeah, it's been a great challenge, but also really opened my eyes up to how all these, these different sectors that I've been learning about in my degree, how do these all work fit together and solve a problem.
 
Trevor Freeman  14:52
Great, yeah, and that's exactly where I want to go next. So, so I'm glad you brought up your capstone project. Just a quick backgrounder for our listeners. A part of an engineering undergrad in Ontario, at least, I think across Canada, is a final year project which is known as the capstone project. So the idea of the capstone project is it's supposed to be a culmination of all the different sort of theoretical things you've learned in your degree, bringing all that knowledge together and giving the students a chance to apply that in some real world scenarios. So, you know, it's interesting, Kieran, to know that your capstone was looking at what does a net zero 2050 reality look like for the City of Ottawa? Because the City of Ottawa has a 2050 Net Zero target, 2040 actually, for the corporation of the City of Ottawa, and 2050 for the community. And there's, there's lots of moving parts to that. It's a real world thing that's happening that a lot of folks are working on. So I'd like to dig into that a little bit more with you and find out. And I know you're not quite finished it yet, so you're not going to have all the answers, but you know what? What are some of the things that you're looking at? What are some of the must do's for us as society and us as a city and all the stakeholders involved if we're going to to achieve that net zero reality?
 
Speaker 1  16:17
Yeah, so we are a group of, I think, 18 or 19 different undergraduates for all, hopefully graduating at the end of the semester. And so this project is happens every year for the past, like four or five years, I think, and we're the third year focusing on Ottawa. So there's been a lot of things covered. And honestly, at the beginning of the project, we were like, how could we possibly have a third year of material to study? And I think now that we're approaching the final we're realizing how much there is to look at, and maybe we'll have some notes for next year saying, like, there really is a million things that we could look at in this scope. Like, it's just a really big scope, but we have, like, a buildings team, an energy storage team, a nuclear team, a solar team, and a transportation team, and I'm on the integration team, so my job is really just trying to put things together from all the different sub teams who are focusing on very specific things, and Specifically I'm the integration team lead. So I'm focusing on load prediction. So like, in 2050 what's the load that we're going to need to have? And that really, including working with transportation and buildings and understanding how, like, the EVS and the heat pumps and electrified heating are we going to have district heating, like, how is all this going to affect our 2050 load.
 
Trevor Freeman  17:46
And so what are some of those strategies? Like, the things you mentioned are bang on. That's of course, the things that are going to drive our demand. Are you looking at providing that additional capacity? You know, with local generation, what's the what's the strategy there? How do we have enough energy and have enough clean energy in order to meet that growing demand that you've identified?
 
Kieran Graham  18:10
Yeah, so that's like the big problem, right? So I'm doing load prediction, and then we have teams like nuclear and solar. And past years we've had wind teams, and I think there was a biofuels team as well past years, and we put all this data, kind of on two sides, and then we feed it through an optimization software that someone is working on in my team, and it's going to look at economically, how competitive something like solar or nuclear or wind or hydro, I guess would be looking within Ottawa like, how do all these compare? And it's all really about economics. When you're looking at it like, which is feasible because there's lots of cool technologies, like I mentioned earlier, but it's optimizing for cost, and then we're finding a low profile, and then ultimately, we want to run it through a software called eTap, which basically is like a digital twin for looking at energy load flow analysis and making sure the grid can actually handle this 2050 load.
 
Trevor Freeman  19:16
And so you've identified kind of the technology challenges and solutions. I'm glad to hear you talk about like, you know, the economics have to make sense. Of course, there are technologies out there that, yeah, if there was unlimited resources, it would solve our problems. What about the sort of, I guess there's sort of two streams here. There's the regulatory, or let's call it the political side, the enabling aspects of, how do we get this technology that makes sense and has a business case? How do we get that deployed, more deployed faster, you know, more broadly, how do we do that? Did you look at the sort of regulatory, political side of things?
 
Kieran Graham  19:56
Yeah, so in our capstone, we don't necessarily look. At it super specifically, like we're not necessarily looking at how regulations would affect it, but it's more we're going to be looking at scenarios of, if we have 100 per cent EV adoption in 2050 what is the load going to look like? But you know, the changing of the federal EV mandate, how is that going to look at change the load projection, and then, how is that going to affect our generation? Like, what do we like if we have huge peaks our nuclear teams generation, which won't necessarily be able to ramp as fast as something like a battery storage or or like a hydro dam, or something like these. These are the complications that we're looking at, not necessarily super focused on regulation, but keeping it as like a guiding prospect of, should we be considering 100 per cent EVs, like, is that really a realistic goal for 2015 at this point?
 
Trevor Freeman  20:59
Yeah. And I guess it's kind of the same thing. And so maybe the answer is similar, but it's this the societal side of things too. And so yeah, like, from a technology perspective, it would be great if we hit that 100 per cent EV coverage by 2050, if not sooner. We know that that's a big source of emissions. It'd be great if we could do sort of like mass heat pump deployment. But at the end of the day, people, you know, we're relying on individuals within our society to make those decisions, and so one aspect of this is, how do we help that be the right decision? And how do we help people want to do this? Because it is the smarter choices. Has that conversation come into the project, and it's okay if it hasn't, I know there's obviously a limited scope of the project. Scope of the project, but is that something that you guys are talking through?
 
Kieran Graham  21:52
Yeah, I think that's something that we are always like talking about as, like a bunch of young engineers who are really looking to understand the industry. And, you know, making sure these things actually happen is always kind of on our mind, like, what's the point of us doing all this work? And, you know, stressing ourselves till two and two in the morning getting our work done or getting ready for a presentation. It's like, why are we doing all of this? I think you know, the aspect of community involvement and the regulatory and making it make sense is part of our job. Like, yes, that maybe our focus isn't necessarily on making it all make sense for the public, but it's, it's something that we have to consider. Like, if it's not economically and like socially viable, then isn't there's no there's no point. Like, it's just not, not a proper engineering solution. So I think ultimately, it's not something that we're focusing on, but something that we talk about all the time, that like, like we go to community events and kind of learn about what people's like outlooks are on, on all these different problems. And would people be okay with having battery systems and solar systems on their house, and would they be okay with using those, as you know, distributed energy resources that can feed back to the grid? Would people be okay with bi directional charging on their EVs like these are big batteries that could be used for different things. Like these aren't necessarily direct considerations of our capstone, but something that we keep in mind when we're trying to create a solution.
 
Trevor Freeman  23:26
Yeah, great. And I'm glad to hear you say that, and I'm glad it's part of the conversation. It's certainly, it's certainly a huge aspect of how we actually deploy these strategies and solutions and how we develop them. It's a big part of you know what I get to do at Hydro Ottawa, being on the customer side of things, is listening to our customers and understanding what their realities are, and trying to find ways of okay, well, how does that match up with programs or opportunities that we have to be able to run. So really glad to hear that you're talking through that the challenge of decarbonizing our energy mix. So going from sort of like fossil fuel combustion energy generation to a cleaner solution is really only one challenge that's facing the energy sector. I'm sure you're aware, you've brought up things that are causing an increase in demand, but we're also seeing, you know, non-climate related drivers of increased energy demand. So I'm thinking about, like, AI proliferation and data center growth and all these things. Is that part of the calculus that goes into your project. Are you thinking of, how do we also meet this growing energy demand for non-climate related reasons?
 
Kieran Graham  24:48
Yeah. I mean, you know, understanding the energy mix, and you know, the load for the future is really difficult, and I know that's my whole job, but you know, if I had an A plus answer, I. Wouldn't have to worry about capstone for the next couple of months. But you know, all these considerations I'm thinking about, so like when I'm getting buildings data from the commercial sector and the residential sector, industry is not very big in Ottawa as an electrical load, at least, but I need to look at that for load prediction, because maybe industry load is going to increase with data center, like, where does that fall under the data the energy split, I know like Kanata Tech Center, like, that's going to be growing, and that's a big energy load, and I know it's a big stress on distribution systems, and the feeders over there struggling, and I know Hydro Ottawa is planning to upgrade those locations. But how can we maybe predict that, like data center or data center like load in Canada, that? How can we deal with that in different way, like adding a battery system over there, or maybe generation closer to there, which just stress the overall grid less.
 
Trevor Freeman  26:05
Yeah, I think it's in, you know, for our non-Ottawa listeners, Kanata is a part of the city that has a high concentration of, sort of the high tech sector. It's, it's certainly a growing area in Ottawa, and one of our constrained areas on the grid that we're investing in and bringing a lot additional capacity to in the coming years. So those challenges that you identified, how do we deal with, not only this energy transition from a clean technology perspective, but also a changing economic demographics like we're seeing more investment in these areas, and how do we make sure that we're keeping up. So yeah, that's definitely, definitely a part of it. So one of the goals of the podcast is definitely to make sure the message is clear that the energy transition is not something of the future. It's not something that will happen eventually. We're in it right now. We're seeing the change to our to the way we use energy, and the way we produce energy and move and store and all those things. So is there something that's happening now, you know, within the energy space that you're particularly excited about that you've, you've kind of learned about in the last little while that you want to get involved in when you when you graduate?
 
Kieran Graham  27:16
Yeah, so my whole degree is about this. So there's so many different aspects that I could talk about in that I'm interested in. And specifically to my capstone, machine learning is a big field in pretty much anything like machine learning and AI will be involved in any sort of capacity, in any industry. I'm sure. The problem with my specific application is I'm trying to predict 2050, load, and our load for the past few years hasn't really been increasing. Due to efficiency, and there was covid and different aspects like that. And so how do we apply that, and what, what kind of way is really interesting. But another thing that I'm really interested in is virtual power plants and stuff like micro grids. And how does all these, these little DERs and non-wire solutions, how do all these these work together? And how can we, like as a community, work with our So, like solar on our houses, or battery systems in our houses, our EVs, our bidirectional charging, as I mentioned earlier, like how, how could these technologies work together to really reduce the stress on the distribution system for you guys at Hydro Ottawa? And how could everything work together? And you see it happening in California. It's like being tested. If I think Ottawa would just be a great place for this, because of the nature of everyone having cars and everything's everyone has big, pretty big houses. We can have solar on our roofs, like, yes, we have a winter but which has less sunlight, but solar is still incredibly viable and useful. So how can all of this work together and become a virtual power plant that one house has energy and you know, the generations not able to keep up, or the distribution system is failing for whatever reason, you can rely on a community which has battery systems or generation systems just locally. How can we use that to then power each other's houses? I think that's really cool, a future thing that really looking forward to.
 
Trevor Freeman  29:26
Yeah, it's, it's definitely something that gets talked a lot about, and, you know, in the industry in general, but even, you know, at Hydro Ottawa, looking at, how do we leverage, you know, this is what you're talking about. How do we leverage customer owned devices, customer equipment, to help manage grid capacity needs. So if we're in a time of increased demand on the grid, how do we make calls out to people that have batteries, people that have EVs, that are plugged in, people that have smart devices in their home, and say, Hey, we need a little bit of capacity. We're going to ask you to draw from your battery instead of the grid, or we're going to ask you to pause your EV charging, or turn your thermostat down a degree in order to generate that capacity on the grid. And it's, it's not even so much, you know, it's, it's not that the grid is failing and able to keep up. It's otherwise we would have to build a much bigger grid. We'd have to invest more in the grid. This lets us be more efficient with how we invest in the grid and how we build out so we can sort of not over build, which traditionally what we do is we kind of build the worst case scenario. What? What would we do if that worst case scenario wasn't as bad, if we could pull on these, these other customer owned equipment? So yeah, very cool concept, and definitely something that we're looking at here at Hydro Ottawa, and have a couple pilots coming up on that.
 
Kieran Graham  30:53
Yeah. And I just wanted to say, like earlier, you're mentioning, like, how do we work on, how do we solve these solutions of net zero within a community, I just think, like the adoption and community incentives and how do we work together? Like, these are the solutions. These are, these are the things that if we as a community decide to do, it's just a very viable thing. It's just we need to be able to work together as a community to be able to do it.
 
Trevor Freeman  31:22
Yeah, so, you know, we've been talking a little bit about a different approach to energy and that community approach. I really like that based on on what you know from your studies and your experience in this area. What do you think the utility of the future looks like, like? What does that look like to you? What is the role of the utility moving forward?
 
Kieran Graham  31:47
Yeah, so it's a hard question, because obviously, there's so many things that could happen. And you know, like I was saying, predicting the future is very hard, and I can't just, can't just use machine learning. It's not a pattern. It's not like something that's going to be super predictable. But I do think like the idea of micro grids and working together and distributed energy resources, like all these things are going to be needed to be able to work together. So there's going to be so many little systems and organization, and the utility was going to be the person, kind of, like a mini IESO, I guess, like, how, like, you're going to be controlling, or not necessarily controlling, but organizing. Who's going to be using their DERs, like, which areas are going to need more solar deployment? Where can we integrate vehicle to grid charging? Where can we add more charging infrastructure for communities? Where can we put, like, community batteries, like, more of like an organizer of even smaller systems within the community. I think that's just the nature of technology is going to be, come more complicated, but we're also going to become more proficient and be able to organize those things. So, yeah, I guess that's, that's what I view the future of utilities.
 
Trevor Freeman  33:17
Yeah, it's, it's a little bit, you know, lots of, lots of, lots of concepts. There it's, it's getting a little bit closer to the end user when it when we look at, how do we operate the grid? So right now, you brought up the IESO, that's our Independent Electricity System Operator who operates on the provincial level. I think the future is that that that level of operation gets a little bit closer to the end user, and that the local distribution companies like Hydro Ottawa have more control to identify where does the grid need extra capacity? Where does it have capacity that we can shift? And that's all happening at the same time as technology is giving us more insight into that. We're having we're going to have more understanding of what's happening down at that granular level. So we're going to be able to make these calls a little bit better. So, yeah, I think, I think you're on the right track. I think that's, that's where we're going. We're going to more of a bidirectional flow of energy, a little bit more closer to the end user control over how the grid is operated.
 
Kieran Graham  34:20
Yeah, and in our classes, we learn about, like in Europe, how they have bidirectional charging and generation. In like Germany, people have solar panels on their balconies everywhere, and it the solar penetration like Germany, a lot of parts of Germany are on the same latitude as us. So it's like, it's not infeasible for like Ottawa, to have solar everywhere and have that be part of the grid, and not just for your own benefit or anything like that. Like, it's a, it's a real possibility.
 
Trevor Freeman  34:51
Yeah, yeah. I think there's, there's lots of things that we can do to really improve, to really leverage the devices that are out there, to leverage. Opportunities that we have in front of us. So, Kieran, as we kind of get close to the end of our conversation here, are there any words of wisdom that you'd like to share? You know, you're kind of at the end of the beginning of your career journey. Here, you're almost done your undergrad, about to take whatever next steps there are, that's, you know, starting your career or further education. What about you know someone who's maybe at the start of that part of their journey? You know someone that's thinking about wanting to get involved in the energy transition, maybe wanting a career in that space. What words of wisdom would you provide?
 
Kieran Graham  35:35
Yeah, so I mean, there's plenty of things I would recommend, you know, for young students, and for people similar approaching my situation, I think the biggest thing is just like networking and creating communities. Like, if you're a new student going into school, like, be part of socials. Be part of engineering societies, and or not engineering societies even like you can just any sort of club or sports team, or just have a community of people that you can really rely on to, like, if you're struggling with an assignment or a topic or a certain class, just like, have someone to be able to talk to talk through like that topic, and ultimately, like those connections who are helping you out with things Like, it'll go back, and they'll be like, Hey, do you understand this? You can get help them. And then you have a friendship, you have a connection, you have someone who's maybe going to work in a field that, like, in the future, you'll be able to leverage to get a job. Like, I have people who, you know, I helped in, or probably they helped me more because they were in older years, and they are working at different industries, and I can now talk to them and be like, hey, like, how do you like your new job now that you're in the workforce, and do you have any opportunities that I can, I could look into working for? So really creating that network of people who can help you out with those things, like you don't have to do it alone, and it really just opens your eyes and allows you to have really good conversations and prepare you for the future.
 
Trevor Freeman  37:08
Yeah, so if I could, if I could just build on that, it's the importance of creating those connections in that community is great for your own learning, your own knowledge, but also for solving problems, like, no problem is solved by a single discipline or a single focus. You know, it's great that you're learning all these tools in your engineering degree, but you know, real problems get solved by a mix of, you know, the engineer folks, the finance folks, the customer side of things, the, you know, societal side of things. So really great advice. Thanks for sharing that with us. So Kieran, we always end our interviews with a series of questions that I ask to all our guests, so I'll dive right into those. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
 
Kieran Graham  37:56
Yeah, so a lot of my reading has been textbooks recently, but I think when I have the time I read a lot of dystopian, so I'll say Fahrenheit 451, even though it's a pretty common one, but it's just really good and really relevant to things.
 
Trevor Freeman  38:10
So yeah, definitely one of those classics that's important for everyone to read or at least be aware of. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's one that you would recommend everybody?
 
Kieran Graham  38:21
Yeah, there's plenty of good shows those are a little bit easier to find some time and brain power for, but big Star Wars fan, so I'm going to say Andor, just a really good show, really relevant, really love that show.
 
Trevor Freeman  38:34
Yeah, fantastic. I agree. And I just so my oldest kid is 12, and I've just got him starting to watch that one. So it's a great. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
 
Kieran Graham  38:49
Yeah, another really hard question. I'm going to Peru right after I graduate. So if you guys wanted to pay for that, that would be great.
 
Trevor Freeman  38:56
It's not an offer. Just to be clear.
 
Kieran Graham  38:58
No, I know. I would just say, like, maybe I really have been seeing these videos about Kyrgyzstan, like the those, like East Asian or, guess, Western Asia countries like Kyrgyzstan would be really cool.
 
Trevor Freeman  39:17
 Cool. Yeah, very neat. Who's someone that you admire?
 
Kieran Graham  39:20
Yeah, so I admire plenty of people. I think I'm going to say my grandpa, though. I've always looked up to him and like how he lives his life, and, you know, he's funny, and just like, has really good values. And I think he's just someone who I ultimately, as a person, look up to. And you know, he worked at Carlton, so I don't know it's just like, the future of like, where I would like to see myself.
 
Trevor Freeman  39:48
Great. Yeah, great answer. And finally, what's something that you're really excited about when it comes to the energy sector, its future, and you have the benefit of being at the very beginning of your career, you get to get involved in this. So what's something you're excited about?
 
Kieran Graham  39:59
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I said earlier, like, there's plenty of things, but I'll say virtual power plants again. Like, if we could create a community where we have DERs and are working together micro grids and all of this, like, that would be so amazing. It'd be so cool. So I think that's going to be, that's my thing. I'm super excited for.
 
Trevor Freeman  40:21
Very cool well, I'm very excited to see you get involved in that, and thanks for your time today. Kieran, it's great to chat with you. It's great to get some insight into kind of what the next generation of engineers are learning and really looking forward to, kind of seeing where you land in short order here and what your career starts to look like. So thanks very much.
 
Kieran Graham  40:41
Awesome. Thank you very much.
 
Trevor Freeman  40:43
Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.