You’re listening to What Rough Beast!Today we’re talking with Rich Logis, a former Trump and MAGA supporter and pundit, who is now the founder of Leaving MAGA, an organization helping others break free from the movement. In this episode, we talk about:* Rich Logis's personal journey from dedicated MAGA supporter to founding Leaving MAGA* How information bubbles and community identity can lead people to reject contradictory evidence and view those outside their group as existential threats* The psychological process of doubting, leaving, and publicly renouncing a political movement that had become central to one's identity* How people seeking to help loved ones still in MAGA can approach conversations with empathy and understanding* The importance of creating new communities for those experiencing doubt, as Leaving MAGA offers an "exit ramp" for people questioning their supportThis episode is free to all listeners, but please consider becoming a paid Magic + Loss subscriber. Every dollar goes to the continued fight against fascism.What Rough Beast is a reader- and listener-supported publication. To receive new posts and support this work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiaheffernan.substack.com/subscribe
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48:59
America's First Truly Radical Experiment
You’re listening to What Rough Beast!We are Virginia Heffernan and Stephen Metcalf, and today we’re talking with the great writer and reporter John Jeremiah Sullivan. We discuss: * John’s forthcoming book "The Prime Minister of Paradise" about Christian Gottlieb Priber, a radical Enlightenment thinker who established a utopian experiment among the Cherokee in 1730s America* How Priber's vision for "Paradise" included revolutionary principles that were ahead of their time: religious tolerance, racial equality, democratic governance, and rejection of slavery* The forgotten history of radical Enlightenment ideas in early America and how they influenced (but weren't fully embraced by) the founding fathers* The parallel between today's political threats to democracy and the tension between enlightenment and anti-enlightenment forces that has existed throughout American history* The importance of identifying and defending the core enlightenment principles that make the American experiment worth fighting forWhat Rough Beast is a listener-supported publication. To receive new posts and support this work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiaheffernan.substack.com/subscribe
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1:41:26
Empathy as Strategy: The Meidas Method
You’re listening to What Rough Beast!We are Virginia Heffernan and Stephen Metcalf, and today we’re talking with the great Ben Meiselas, co-host (and -founder) of the chart-busting MeidasTouch, and USC Law Professor. Virginia also recently profiled Meiselas for The New Republic.In this episode, we talk about:* How politics has become "gamified" like sports entertainment, with people choosing political figures like they'd pick fighters in a video game rather than focusing on underlying issues and values* The contrast between Meidas Touch Network's approach (focused on empathy, compassion, and data-driven analysis) versus rage-driven media algorithms* How sports and entertainment are being used as tools for political messaging; think of UFC, WWE figures, and sports teams visiting the White House* The concerning overlap between entertainment spectacle and serious governance, with political conversations being treated like debates about reality TV* Meidas Touch Network's stunning growth metrics, now generating more views than Fox News and more podcast downloads than Joe RoganThis episode is free to all listeners, but please consider becoming a paid Magic + Loss subscriber. Every dollar goes to the continued fight against fascism.Magic + Loss is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiaheffernan.substack.com/subscribe
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1:00:29
EXCLUSIVE: U.S. watchlisted as 'repressive regime'
You’re listening to What Rough Beast!We are Virginia Heffernan and Stephen Metcalf, and today we’re talking with Mandeep Tiwana of CIVICUS, a global alliance of civil society organizations and activists working to strengthen citizen action and civil society throughout the world. And CIVICUS just added the United States to its Watchlist. In this episode, we talk about:* Why CIVICUS has put the U.S. on a democracy watchlist alongside countries like Serbia and Congo* The scary erosion of basic American freedoms like protesting, speaking out, and organizing* How America's gone through rough patches before, but why this time feels way more alarming* How democracy is torn down with alarming speed, and takes decades and centuries to rebuild * What regular Americans can do to spot these freedom-crushing red flags before things get even worseThis episode is free to all listeners, but please consider becoming a paid Magic + Loss subscriber. Every dollar goes to the continued fight against fascism.What Rough Beast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new episodes and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiaheffernan.substack.com/subscribe
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1:15:39
How to Build an Opposition
You’re listening to What Rough Beast!We are Virginia Heffernan and Stephen Metcalf, and today we’re talking with Michael Tomasky, author, journalist and editor of The New Republic. In this episode, we talk about:* The media earthquake nobody's talking about - this was the FIRST election where Fox News and right-wing media actually out-muscled the mainstream press in setting the national agenda (and it explains SO much about Trump's win)* The impossible trap journalists face today: try to debunk crazy stories about "immigrants eating pets" and you end up amplifying the very nonsense you're fighting against 🤦♀️* All the wild stuff happening just LAST WEEK - from Trump's team spilling military secrets in Signal chats to straight-up extorting law firms (and Michael doesn't hold back on what this says about their contempt for rules)* A brilliant idea that could save Democrats: create a "shadow government" like the Brits do, with designated people to tackle each Trump disaster instead of everyone scrambling to respond to everything* Proof that good journalism still matters! The New Republic's reporting actually forced the Trump administration to restore a program tracking Ukrainian children taken by Russians (small wins in dark times) This episode is free to all listeners, but please consider becoming a paid Magic + Loss subscriber. Every dollar goes to the continued fight against fascism.What Rough Beast is a listener-supported podcast. To receive new posts and support this work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiaheffernan.substack.com/subscribe
What Rough Beast, hosted by Virginia Heffernan (Wired, Trumpcast) and Stephen Metcalf (Slate, Culture Gabfest) is a podcast where we bear witness to America’s demise, and ask what might be built from the rubble. The sludge. The sparkly phosphorescent faerie dust of recombinant DNA.
It is a spiritual successor to Trumpcast, but with a radical reimagining. Instead of focusing on opposing Trump or trusting institutions, this podcast explores imaginative, unexpected responses to our current political moment. The show takes inspiration from the '68ers' motto "all power to the imagination" and seeks unconventional solutions beyond traditional political frameworks. virginiaheffernan.substack.com
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