Conversing with Mark Labberton

“I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this. … The hope is to survive. … It’s really hard to think beyond that.” “We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide.” —Rev. Dr. Munther Issac, from the episode In the long history of conflict in the Middle East, both Jews and Palestinians have felt and continue to feel the existential threat of genocide. There remains so much to be spoken and heard about the experience of each side of this conflict. Today we’re exploring a Palestinian perspective. Ministering in present-day Bethlehem, pastor, theologian, author, and advocate Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the state of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, now a year following Isaac’s bracing and sobering Christmas sermon, which was graphically represented in a sculptural manger scene of “Christ in the Rubble”—a crèche depicting the newborn Jesus amid the debris of Palestinian concrete, wood, and rebar. Together they discuss the experience, emotions, and response of Palestinians after fourteen months of war; the Christian responsibility to speak against injustice of all kinds as an act of faith; the contours of loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies in the Sermon on the Mount; what theology can bring comfort in the midst of suffering; just war theory versus the justice of God; the hope for survival; and the Advent hope that emerges from darkness. A Message from Mark Labberton Since October 7 of 2023, the world has been gripped by the affairs that have been unfolding in the Middle East between Israel and Palestine. And the world is eager, anxious, fearful, angry, and divided over these affairs. All of this is extremely complicated. And yet, as a friend said to me once about apartheid (I’m paraphrasing): It’s not just that it’s complicated (which it is), it’s actually also very simple: that we refuse to live as Christian people. By that, he was not trying to form any sort of reductionism. He was simply trying to say, Are we willing to live our faith? Are we willing to live out the identity of the people of God in the context of places of great division and violence and evil? The Middle East is fraught historically with these debates, and certainly since the of the nation-state of Israel in 1947, there has been this ongoing anguish and understandable existential crisis that Jews have experienced both inside Israel and around the world because of the ongoing anti-Semitic hatred that seems to exist in so many places and over such a long, long period of time. Today we have the privilege of hearing from one of the most outstanding Christian voices, a Palestinian Christian pastor, Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, who is the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. He is also academic dean of the Bethlehem Bible College and a director of the highly acclaimed and influential conference called Christ at the Checkpoint. Munther in this last year has been the voice of Christian pleading. Pleading for an end to the war, pleading for the end to violence, pleading for the end to all of the militarism that has decimated parts of Israel, but also, and even more profoundly, the decimation that has leveled approximately 70 percent of all Palestinian homes in Gaza. This kind of devastation, the loss of forty-five thousand lives and more in Palestine, has riveted the world’s attention. And Munther has been a person who has consistently spoken out in places all around the United States and in various parts of the world, trying to call for an end to the war and for a practice of Christian identity that would seek to love our neighbours, as Jesus taught us in the Sermon on the Mount, including sometimes also loving our enemies. The reason for the interview with Munther today is because of the one-year anniversary of Something that occurred in their church in Bethlehem, a crèche with a small baby lying in the Palestinian rubble. Seeing and understanding and looking at Christmas through the lens of that great collision between the bringer of peace, Jesus Christ, and the reality of war. In the meantime, we have a great chance to welcome a brother in Christ ministering with many suffering people in the Middle East, Jew and Gentile, and certainly Palestinian Christians. About Munther Isaac Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He now pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences. Munther is passionate about issues related to Palestinian theology. He speaks locally and internationally and has published numerous articles on issues related to the theology of the land, Palestinian Christians and Palestinian theology, holistic mission, and reconciliation. His latest book, Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza (get your copy via Amazon or Eerdmans), will appear in March 2025. He is also the author of The Other Side of the Wall, From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth, An Introduction to Palestinian Theology (in Arabic), a commentary on the book of Daniel (in Arabic), and more recently he has published a book on women’s ordination in the church, also in Arabic. He is involved in many reconciliation and interfaith forums. He is also a Kairos Palestine board member. Munther originally studied civil engineering in Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a master in biblical studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and then a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies. Munther is married to Rudaina, an architect, and together they have two boys: Karam and Zaid. Follow him on X @muntherisaac. Show Notes The complexity of conflict in Palestine, Israel, and the Middle East “It’s very simple: We refuse to live as Christian people.” Get your copy of Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza via Amazon or Eerdmans “Christ in the Rubble”—the one-year anniversary Munther Isaac’s Christmas sermon, “Christ Under the Rubble” Video A Letter from all churches in Bethlehem: “No war” “ I can't believe how used we got to the idea of children being killed.” “We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide that’s taking place in front of the whole world to see.” Fourteen months of non-stop bombing “We’re still feeling the anger.” ”We’re still feeling the pain. We’re still feeling the anger. And in a strange way, even more fearful of what is to come, given that it seems that to the world, Palestinians are less human.” “We couldn’t go to church as normal.” “ It’s our calling to continue as people of faith. To call for a change, and to call for things to be different in our world, even to call for accountability. And of course, I feel that my message should be first to the church, because I’m a Christian minister.  I don’t like to lecture other religions about how they should respond. And I feel that the church could have done more.” Freedom to speak out: “You can’t say these things in public.” Anti-Semitism and hatred toward Jews “ This kind of hatred and prejudice toward the Jews, which led to the horrors of the Holocaust, to me, it stems from the idea of ‘we’re superior, we’re better, we’re entitled,’ and blaming someone else. It comes from a position of righteousness and lack of humility. And certainly Jews have always been the victim of such hatred and blame.” “ At the same time, we as Palestinians cannot but wonder why is it us that we’re paying the price for what happened on someone else’s land? We’re paying the price.” Loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies Jesus’s politically charged environment Violence, just wWar theory, and “the justice of God” Using children as human shields for militants “ We cannot again bypass what Jesus was challenging us to do, even if it's not easy at all. It was Jesus who confirmed that loving God and loving neighbour summarizes everything. It wasn’t like I came up with this novel thing, but I think we somehow found other ways to define what it means to be a Christian.” “What theology would bring comfort?” Matthew 25, judgment, and ministering to Jesus through “the least of these” “ ‘Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake.’ So he’s clearly talking about victims of unjust structures, those who are thirsty for justice, those who are hungry.” Hopes for peace “I’m going to be very real, Mark. I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this.” “They estimate that 70 percent of the homes of two million people are destroyed.” Violence and destruction connected to a biblical argument about the legitimacy of Palestinian genocide The vulnerability of Israel and the vulnerability of Palestine “ And it’s important to say these things. Because if we don’t say them, then we … leave the task of imagination to those who are radical—to the extremists and exclusivists.” Munther Isaac’s thoughts on the Zionist movement Advent reflections on the darkness at the centre, from which hope and life might emerge Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“We learn the most from those who came before us, not by gazing up at them uncritically or down on them condescendingly, but by looking them in the eye. And taking their true measure as human beings, not as gods.” (Daniel Gidick, quoting historian John Meacham) “When does the revolution end? … It doesn’t.” (Daniel Gidick on Thomas Jefferson) “This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper.” (Daniel Gidick, quoting Franklin D. Roosevelt) Teaching high school history in our current social and political moment represents a formative transmission of the past to the present. Not to mention that a high school level US history course is often one of the final steps toward citizenship and public participation for young adults entering American society. In this episode, Mark welcomes high school history teacher Daniel Gidick for a discussion of how the teaching of history and the education of young people influence human society. Together they discuss the connection between history and contemporary society; the stories of conflict and human interest; the joy and challenge of secondary education; the politicalization of high school history; how students adopt a connection to the past; the importance of fact-based history teaching; how history affects American democratic citizenship; and the personal connection Daniel has with the study of United States history. About Daniel Giddick Daniel Gidick teaches US history and government at Albemarle High School in Charlottesville, Virginia. Show Notes US history and the constant turmoil of the social landscape History as “stories of human conflict and human interest” Inspirational historical figures The depth and impact of high school teachers on young people “Battlefield breakfast” “The last teacher they’ll have before they take on the greatest title that you can have (other than parent), which is citizen.” “A parodied speech of Eisenhower’s D-Day speech” to motivate test takers Historical documents The politicization of high school history Jon Meacham: “We learn the most from those who came before us, not by gazing up at them uncritically or down on them condescendingly, but by looking them in the eye. And taking their true measure as human beings, not as gods.” American Civil War State versus national power “When in doubt, the answer of the division of history is: slavery.” The New Deal: “The pivot point of the twentieth century.” Immigration How do students feel about America? “Lincoln has to be dead by Christmas.” “When does the revolution end? … It doesn’t.” A connection to the past, finding relevance What is your theory of history? Fact-based historical teaching How history affects American democratic citizenship An inflection point in American history “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.” (FDR) “This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper.” (FDR) “One of the points of reflecting on the past is to prepare us for action in the present.” (Jon Meacham) Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“In October 1975, I was shot six times. And while I was on the hospital gurney, doctor told me I was going to die. I heard a very clear voice that spoke to me and said, you're not going to die. You're going to be a chaplain at San Quentin prison.” (Chaplain Earl Smith) Chaplain Earl Smith believes that ministry to the incarcerated is about so much more than rehabilitation. It’s about regeneration. Using the power of his own story of transformation from gang member to pastor, Chaplain Smith has maintained a faithful presence and witness for many decades of pastoral service to the incarcerated at San Quentin Rehabilitation Center, and now to professional athletes (including the Golden State Warriors, San Francisco 49ers, and the San Francisco Giants). Today on the show Mark Labberton and Chaplain Earl Smith discuss the moral and spiritual factors of prison chaplaincy and ministry for those on death row; the meaning of freedom and education; how he ministered to the leader of the Aryan Brotherhood; the difference that positive mentoring and coaching makes in young people’s lives; and the transformative power of the gospel to go beyond rehabilitation to regeneration. About Earl Smith Born and reared in Stockton, California, the cycle of events in Earl’s life came to a head in 1975 when he was shot 6 times while living the life of a minor gangster. Although expected to die, Earl’s father’s faith, prayers, and love seemed to bring him through. The words of his father have motivated him, since that event, “you are a rebel, but you are God’s rebel, and God is going to use you to His glory.” In 1983, at the age of 27, Earl became the youngest person ever hired as a Protestant Chaplain by the California Department of Corrections. He is author of Death Row Chaplain: Unbelievable True Stories from America's Most Notorious Prison. Chaplain Smith currently serves as the Chief Executive Officer for Franklin Home, a Transition Living/Reentry Home for men and is the Team Pastor for the San Francisco 49ers’ and the Golden State Warriors. From 1998 to 2006 Chaplain Smith was the Chapel Leader for the San Francisco Giants. Chaplain Smith has ministered to teams playing in NFL Super Bowls, MLB World Series and NBA Championships. In 2000, Chaplain Smith was recognized as the National Correctional Chaplain of the Year. Chaplain Smith has appeared on numerous broadcasts, including HBO, CNN, The 700 Club, Trinity Broadcasting Network and The History Channel. Earl has been featured in Christianity Today, Ebony, Guidepost, Ministry Today, Newsweek, People’s Weekly, The African Americans and Time. Show Notes Get your copy of Death Row Chaplain: Unbelievable True Stories from America's Most Notorious Prison How Mark and Chaplain Smith met The value of education “I had to stop my education because of the execution schedule at San Quentin.” How Earl Smith got into prison chaplaincy “In October 1975, I was shot six times. And while I was on the hospital gurney, doctor told me I was going to die. I heard a very clear voice that spoke to me and said, you're not going to die. You're going to be a chaplain at San Quentin prison.” What San Quentin prison is like “We used to call San Quentin the Bastille by the Bay. The thing that really stood out for me was the fact that for 13 of the first 16 months I was there, the prison was locked down. The day I interviewed, two people were killed, so they stopped my interview twice. So I understood where I was. I understood the context of confinement. What I also went in there understanding was. It was not about rehabilitation. It was about regeneration.” “I believe that that's part of chaplaincy is not to allow the confines of the wall to dictate who you are.” A sense of liberty Fear and reality Earl Smith’s ministry to the leader of the Aryan Brotherhood How faith shaped a capacity to be free from fear for the sake of love Mass incarceration and the new Jim Crow The drug epidemic and its impact on mass incarceration “How can you help us prepare these guys to come home?” “Whether you're on condemned role, if you have a life without the possibility of parole, or life sentence, or whatever it is, my job is still to share the same gospel message.” “Present your body as a living sacrifice.” Pastoral care in the prison system Calling prisoners by their first names instead of their numbers “When you've done it onto the least of these, you've done it to me, so there's a value in your presence.” Chaplaincy to professional athletes “The states that have the largest prison systems are also the states that send the most professional athletes in the pro sports.” Golden State Warriors and San Francisco 49ers The difference that positive mentoring and coaching makes in young people’s lives “Every man wants someone to acknowledge there's something positive in what you're doing.” “They May Know Your Number, But God Knows Your Name” (Clifton Jansky, country western singer) God’s way of paying attention to us; “how vested God is in our pursuit of being fully human” (reference to Marilynne Robinson) Performance and identity (reference to Ben Houltberg) Jerry Rice, #80 and “who wore the number before you?” Fellowship of Christian Athletes and Athletes in Action “God is a relational God. … Sports is relational.” When did chaplaincy in sports become a thing? Pat Ritchie’s chaplaincy Understanding the value and difference chaplaincy makes Documentary and Film Adaptation: Death Row Chaplain “A story not of rehabilitation but regeneration” “That's really what the story is about. Some of my yesterday, some of my today. And what I believe to be my tomorrow.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Things had radically changed. … They had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to a concrete hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community potluck. Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day. Here Mark reflects on the emotional and psychological difficulties he was going through, the meaning and beauty of friendship, how every dish of a Thanksgiving dinner is an act of hope and community, and how hospitality and generosity can uplift every member of a community. If you or anyone you know is struggling with depression or considering suicide, there is help available now. Simply call or text 988 to speak with someone right away, share what you’re going through, and get the support you need. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes A story about Thanksgiving Day many years ago, during Mark Labberton’s master of divinity degree at Fuller Seminary “… not just overwhelmed, but really undone” “ … the possibility of ending my life …” Every Thanksgiving dish as an act of hope and community Beauty of friendship A magnificent extravaganza Sharing not just food but hope “Things had radically changed. And that in fact they had, they had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.” “For me, Thanksgiving Day holds this deep and pensive awareness that Thanksgiving doesn't always come easy, that often it's a difficult act, that it involves things that are sometimes impossible for certain people to carry. And at the same time, it's possible for other people to carry them in our place, which is what these friends did for me that day.” If you’re feeling despair, seek professional help. Call or text 988 for an immediate response with a counsellor. Seek community. “Whether you're in darkness or in light, whether your heart feels full of gratitude or whether it may not, I just hope that you'll be aware that God is with you, that you are not alone, that there are people that want to support you and help you, and that there are people that know you who would welcome you into a circle of celebration and gratitude today.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.