The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast

At 500 knots each, two F-16s point straight at each other with less than a second to react, one of them upside down. That's the moment Michelle "Mace" Curran walks Dwayne through in Part 2 of this conversation, and it's just the entry point into a masterclass on what she calls "the space between": the pause between feeling fear and deciding what to do with it.
In this episode:
The near head-on collision during a Thunderbirds training pass, closing at roughly 1,000 mph, missing by what she believes was inches and the split-second decision-making that got both pilots through it
Why Michelle earned her call sign "Mace" (Mach at Circle Entry) by accidentally breaking the sound barrier on her second flight in Japan, and how she turned it into a badge of honor
The physical disruptor, wiggling her toes, that a flight instructor taught her to break out of over-control and hypervigilance, and the neuroscience behind why it works
Why the Thunderbirds' hiring process (40 applicants, 3 spots, a 12-officer interview panel) weighs personality, composure, and preparation over raw technical skill
Her "bubble" routine in her third year with the Thunderbirds, strict self-care boundaries that helped her show up better in a public-facing role
Why she sees fear as a signal, not a stop sign, and how that reframe applies as much to a hard business call as it does to flying a fighter jet

Time Stamps:
00:00 Competence Over Noise
00:33 Welcome Michelle “Mace” Curran
01:32 Imposter Syndrome Pivot
02:53 Bravery And Fear Reframed
07:20 The Space Between
12:03 Near Miss Decision Making
14:54 Physical Disruptors Tool
21:56 Fear Signals In The Body
23:29 High Performance Discipline
29:01 Hiring For Team Traits
33:39 Thunderbirds Selection Process
36:20 Prep Under Pressure
37:13 Working Interview Signals
38:32 Downtime Reveals Drive
39:31 Bias and Perception Checks
41:15 Women in Fighter Aviation
47:13 Media Noise and Unity
50:58 Leading for Bigger Impact
54:56 Self Care for Performance
59:06 Where to Find Michelle
01:00:09 Call Sign and Failure Lessons
01:04:19 Final Thanks
Michelle "Mace" Curran is a former U.S. Air Force fighter pilot who flew as a Thunderbirds lead solo and trained the incoming opposing solo pilot during her tenure on the team. Over a 13-year military career she flew combat missions and instrument approaches in extreme conditions, including a station in Misawa, Japan. She is now a keynote speaker and author of the children's book Upside Down Dreams and its sequel centered on fighter pilot call signs, and has written a book exploring fear and decision-making under pressure. She also runs corporate workshops and speaks widely on high performance, fear, and leadership.
Connect with Michelle
Website: https://macecurran.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mace_curran
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/macecurran/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/macecurran/
Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan
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Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

She's the second woman in history to fly lead solo for the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds and she still describes her early years in a fighter squadron as "classic imposter syndrome." Michelle "Mace" Curran spent years running from failure before she realized what was actually driving her forward, and in this conversation with Dwayne Kerrigan, she pulls back the curtain on the debrief culture that rebuilt her confidence — and the messy, control-freak transition from single-seat cockpit to solo entrepreneur.
In this episode:
How a moment in the bookstore at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum led, four years later, to Michelle's children's book What's Your Call Sign?
Why Michelle calls her first Air Force assignment "classic imposter syndrome" — and how she learned to tell the difference between being pulled toward a goal and running from failure
Inside the Air Force flight debrief: how "root cause" and a single "lesson learned" sentence turn every flight — successful or not — into a team-wide teaching moment
What changed when Michelle transferred to a reserve squadron in Texas right after it had debriefed a near-catastrophic mishap
Why leaving the military for entrepreneurship exposed her as, in her words, "a control freak," and what she's doing to build a real team instead of running her business like a one-person cockpit
How hitting the USA Today bestseller list with her book The Flip Side actually coincided with a dip in speaking bookings — and the lesson she took from it

Time Stamps:
00:00 Imposter Syndrome
00:24 Welcome
00:55 Meet Michelle “Mace” Curran
02:39 Why Kids Books
05:24 From Wisconsin To Jets
06:53 Advice For Parents
09:10 Pull Versus Push
14:48 Japan Pressure Cooker
18:39 Reputation And Legacy
21:25 Finding Your Team Role
23:35 Learning From Mishaps
26:32 Fighter Pilot Debriefs
31:32 Debrief Cadence Matters
32:40 Feedback Without Fear
34:36 Stacking the Odds
36:17 Solo Entrepreneur Shock
39:17 Delegation and Control
43:56 Trust Systems Not People
48:45 Building SOPs and CRM
52:17 Book Launch Reality Check
56:30 Entrepreneurship Fear and Freedom
58:49 Closing and Listener Takeaways
Michelle "Mace" Curran is a former U.S. Air Force F-16 fighter who flew as the fifth woman and second woman ever to fly lead solo with the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds. She left active duty in 2022 after 13 years of service and founded Upside Down Dreams, a speaking, training, and education company. She is the author of three books, including the national bestseller The Flip Side, along with two children's books, Upside Down Dreams and What's Your Call Sign?
Resources mentioned:
The Flip Side (book)
Upside Down Dreams (children's book)
What's Your Call Sign? (children's book)

Follow The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast for Part 2 of this conversation, and find more from Michelle "Mace" Curran.
Connect with Michelle
Website: https://macecurran.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mace_curran
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/macecurran/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/macecurran/
Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan
Facebook
Instagram
Linked In
Website
Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

On this episode, Dwayne sits down with Keiron McCammon, host of Spark of Trust podcast, to unpack why that show exists in the first place. It starts with a wrong answer: Keiron went looking for what broke in 2022, blamed social media, and found something underneath it. Trust didn't collapse all at once, it broke in three acts over six decades: first our communities, then our institutions, then our information environment, each one stacking on the last, so no single fix, founder, or organization can repair it alone. Over the next hour and a half, Dwayne and Keiron dig into that unraveling, and why the honest response isn't a solution, it's a signal.
Time Stamps:
00:00 Welcome Keiron McCammon - Spark of Trust Podcast
01:36 Why Trust Matters
02:57 Tech Optimism to Disillusion
05:06 From Misinformation to Trust
06:14 Three Acts of Trust
09:54 Spark of Trust Mission
13:47 Community Pillar Questions
17:04 Neya
24:08 Institutions and Business Trust
30:27 Why Small Business Wins
34:20 Earning Trust Locally
35:19 Reimagining Broken Institutions
37:48 Community Care Lost
41:13 New Models in Healthcare
42:51 Building Trustworthy News
45:11 Tech Accelerates Misinformation
48:08 Internet of Humans
51:12 Trustworthy AI and Fiduciary Duty
57:26 Agents Bots and Identity
01:02:07 Optimism and Network Building
01:04:48 Podcast as Information Network
01:08:28 Dream Guests and Mission
01:09:32 From Listeners to Action
01:12:32 Building Trust Communities
01:18:36 Capital and Trust Tech
01:20:20 Mission-Proof Business Models
01:26:20 Honesty Builds Trust
01:28:02 Character and Consumer Power
01:31:53 Closing Reflections
If this conversation named something you've been feeling, share it with someone who needs it. And follow the show wherever you listen. It helps the right people find it.
Connect with Spark of Trust
https://sparkoftrust.com/
https://www.youtube.com/@SparkofTrust
https://www.linkedin.com/company/sparkoftrust
https://www.instagram.com/sparkoftrust/
https://www.facebook.com/sparkoftrust
https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/spark-of-trust/id6807994008
https://open.spotify.com/show/3XYhVqgSkTCGMpUYiRZDAQ?si=befe38707d834864
Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan
Facebook
Instagram
Linked In
Website
Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

Canada's top female entrepreneur two years running, flying between magazine covers and global stages and privately rocking on the floor with the door locked. Kelsey Kitsch, former CEO of Mind Cure and author of Success Hangover, sits down with Dwayne to unpack the ego that built her empire, the psychedelic experience that dismantled it, and what she found once the striving finally stopped.
Content Warning: This episode discusses psychedelics from personal experience. Dwayne and Kelsey explicitly state they are not promoting psychedelics. If you choose to explore this topic, please do thorough research, consult a medical professional, and ensure proper facilitation and integration support.This content is for informational purposes only.
This episode also touches on mental health and suicidal ideation. If you or someone you know is struggling, call or text 988 — the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline — available 24/7 in both the US and Canada.
In this episode:
The three conditions Kelsey uses to unlock curiosity and better ideas, novelty, motion, and high emotion, drawn from researcher Mary Helen Immordino-Yang's work
Why Kelsey builds weekly goals instead of long-term SMART goals, and how her brother Trent Kitch's annual "goal card" shaped that thinking
The battle between her "ego self" and "soul self" that played out over four hours in her first guided psychedelic experience and what was waiting on the other side
A breakdown of psychedelic experience levels, from psilocybin and MDMA to ayahuasca, San Pedro, mescaline, and 5-MeO-DMT, and what "set, setting, and sacrament" actually mean
Why Dwayne points listeners toward Dr. Dispenza's breathwork program as a non-psychedelic starting point, and the Othership app Kelsey uses
The reframe that closes the episode: "We can only feel loved in proportion to how much we're seen, and we can only be seen in proportion to how much we show people of ourselves."

Time Stamps:
00:00 Psychedelic Safety Disclaimer
00:42 Mett Kelsey Kitsch
03:30 Reinvention in a Changing World
05:13 Curiosity as a Career Compass
08:23 Play Framework for Creativity
16:34 Pattern Interrupts and Choice
19:48 Expectations Goals and Targets
30:23 Funeral Mindset and Daily Meaning
33:44 Opening Up About Psychedelics
35:32 Hustle Identity
36:31 Success Yet Empty
37:54 First Guided Journey
38:52 Sufficiency After Silence
41:15 Safety And Legality
42:22 Psychedelic Levels
44:44 Set Setting Integration
48:29 Breathwork Alternative
51:20 Beyond Woo Woo
59:39 Curiosity Over Protocol
01:03:10 Operating System Reset
01:04:58 Ego Versus Soul
01:10:04 Seen To Be Loved
01:13:01 Closing Remarks
About Kelsey Kitsch: Kelsey Kitsch is a Canadian entrepreneur recognized as the country's top female entrepreneur two years in a row and named to Canadian Business' Top 25 Under 35 and the Dell Women's Entrepreneur Network's Top 200 Globally. She started in construction at 15 in her father's business, later becoming President of Belvedere Place Development before founding Spark Play. She is the author of Success Hangover, delivered the TED Talk "Play Is the New PhD," and previously served as CEO of Mind Cure, a psychedelic-focused mental health company. She is now the founder of Paramont Love, focused on intimacy intelligence.
Resources mentioned:
Book: Success Hangover by Kelsey Kitsch
TED Talk: "Play Is the New PhD" by Kelsey Kitsch

Connect with Kelsey Kitsch:
https://www.kelseykitsch.com/
Linked In
Connect: Follow The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast for a new episode each week, and follow Kelsey Kitsch's ongoing work in intimacy intelligence at Paramont Love
Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan
Facebook
Instagram
Linked In
Website
Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.

Kelsey Kitsch was Canada's number one female entrepreneur two years in a row. She was on the cover of magazines, speaking at global economic forums, and building multimillion-dollar companies. She was also sitting on the floor of her locked office, in the darkest period of her life, wondering why none of it felt like anything. In Part 1 of this conversation, she and Dwayne explore what happens when the life you built no longer fits — and what it takes to build a new one from the inside out.
In this episode:
The three-factor brain state that produces your best ideas — novelty, motion, and high emotion — drawn from Mary Helen Imordino-Yang's research, and why Kelsey's most creative moments happen driving fast with the windows down in a place she doesn't know
Why most people set goals wrong: Kelsey's case for short-term weekly goals anchored to a long-term direction, and why the deeper question isn't "what do I want to achieve?" but "who do I want to be when I get there?"
Kelsey's experience with guided psychedelic therapy — the four-hour ego vs. soul battle she audio-taped during her first journey, and what it felt like to experience sufficiency for the first time: just being, without striving or driving or winning
Why woo-woo is a category problem, not an evidence problem — and how Kelsey frames breathwork and psychedelics the same way: repeatable patterns that produce consistent results, regardless of whether the mechanism is fully explained yet
The Othership breathwork app and Dr. Joe Dispenza's Marco Island program as non-invasive entry points for anyone curious about expanded states but not ready for psychedelics
The single most important insight Kelsey has learned about love and being human: we can only feel loved in proportion to how much we're seen, and we can only be seen in proportion to how much we show of ourselves.

Content Warning: This episode discusses psychedelics from personal experience. Dwayne and Kelsey explicitly state they are not promoting psychedelics. If you choose to explore this topic, please do thorough research, consult a medical professional, and ensure proper facilitation and integration support.This content is for informational purposes only.
This episode also touches on mental health and suicidal ideation. If you or someone you know is struggling, call or text 988 — the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline — available 24/7 in both the US and Canada.
Episode Highlights (audio):
00:00 - Psychedelic Safety Disclaimer
00:42 - Podcast Intro
01:13 - Meet Kelsey Kitsch
03:28 - Reinvention in a Changing World
05:13 - Staying Curious to Pivot
08:23 - Creativity Formula - Three Factors
16:34 - Pattern Interrupts and Choice
19:48 - Expectations Goals and the Golf Metaphor
25:16 - Identity Driven Targets and Daily Intentions
30:23 - Mortality Mindset and Showing Up Fully
33:43 - Opening the Psychedelics Conversation
34:32 - Driven to Deliver
36:31 - Success Yet In Crisis
37:54 - First Guided Journey
38:52 - Quiet Mind Breakthrough
41:15 - Safety and Legality
42:22 - Psychedelic Levels 101
44:44 - Set Setting Integration
48:29 - Breathwork Alternative
51:20 - Debunking Woo Woo
57:15 - Curiosity Beyond Protocols and Unknowns
01:04:58 - Ego vs Soul Battle
01:10:04 - Seen Known Loved
01:13:01 - Closing and Disclaimers
Resources mentioned:
Success Hangover — Kelsey Kitsch’s book
TED Talk: Play Is the New PhD — Kelsey Kitsch
MINDCURE — psychedelic drug research company Kelsey co-founded

Overcoming Adversity: A Journey to Self-Alignment and Impactful Entrepreneurship with Sophia Plank
Part 2: Finding Balance: The Intersection of Self-Reflection and Business Growth with Sophia Plank
About Kelsey Kitsch:
Kelsey Kitsch is a Canadian entrepreneur, author, and founder who was twice named Canada's top female entrepreneur by PROFIT and Chatelaine. She built and led multiple multimillion-dollar companies including Belvedere Place Development, co-founded MINDCURE (a psychedelic drug research company), and is now the founder of Paramount Love (https://paramountlove.com/), focused on intimacy intelligence. She is the author of Success Hangover (published as Kelsey Ramsden) and has given a TED Talk titled Play Is the New PhD.
Connect with Kelsey Kitsch:
https://www.kelseykitsch.com/
Linked In
Connect with Dwayne Kerrigan
Facebook
Instagram
Linked In
Website
Disclaimer: The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dwayne Kerrigan and his affiliates. Dwayne Kerrigan or The Dwayne Kerrigan Podcast is not responsible for and does not verify the accuracy of any of the information contained in the podcast series. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. Listeners are advised to consult with a qualified professional or specialist before making any decisions based on the content of this podcast.