Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

• "Sell the alpha, not the feature": The enterprise sales playbook for $1M to $10M ARR | Jen Abel

  Jen Abel is GM of Enterprise at State Affairs and co-founded Jellyfish, a consultancy that helps founders learn zero-to-one enterprise sales. She’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met on learning enterprise sales, and in this follow-up to our first chat two years ago (covering the zero to $1 million ARR founder-led sales phase), we focus on the skills founders need to learn to go from $1M to $10M ARR.We discuss:1. Why the “mid-market” doesn’t exist2. Why tier-one logos like Stripe and Tesla counterintuitively make the best early customers3. The dangers of pricing your product at $10K-$20K4. Why you need to vision-cast instead of problem-solve to win enterprise deals5. Why services are the fastest way to get your foot in the door with enterprises6. How to find and work with design partners7. When to hire your first salesperson and what profile to look for—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUsLovable—Build apps by simply chatting with AICoda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace—Where to find Jen Abel:• X: https://x.com/jjen_abel• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/earlystagesales• Website: https://www.jjellyfish.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Welcome back, Jen!(04:38) The myth of the mid-market(08:08) Targeting tier-one logos(10:50) Vision-casting vs. problem-selling(15:35) The importance of high ACVs(20:45)  Don’t play the small business game with an enterprise company(25:09) Design partners: the double-edged sword(28:11) Finding the right company(36:55) Enterprise sales: the art of the deal(43:21) The problem with channel partnerships(44:41) Quick summary(50:24) Hiring the right enterprise salespeople(56:49) Structuring sales compensation(01:01:01) Building relationships in enterprise sales(01:02:07) The art of cold outreach(01:07:31) Outbound tooling and AI(01:14:08) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• The ultimate guide to founder-led sales | Jen Abel (co-founder of JJELLYFISH): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/master-founder-led-sales-jen-abel• Mario meme: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/missing-meme-led-me-woman-johann-van-tonder-im6df• Kathy Sierra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Sierra• Cursor: https://cursor.com• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Justin Lawson on X: https://x.com/jjustin_lawson• Stripe: https://stripe.com• Building product at Stripe: craft, metrics, and customer obsession | Jeff Weinstein (Product lead): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-product-at-stripe-jeff-weinstein• He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• Linear: https://linear.app• Linear’s secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu• Gemini: https://gemini.google.com• Microsoft Copilot: https://copilot.microsoft.com• How Palantir built the ultimate founder factory | Nabeel S. Qureshi (founder, writer, ex-Palantir): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-palantir-nabeel-qureshi• McKinsey & Company: https://www.mckinsey.com• Deloitte: https://www.deloitte.com• Accenture: https://www.accenture.com• Building a world-class sales org | Jason Lemkin (SaaStr): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-a-world-class-sales-org• Peter Dedene on X: https://x.com/peterdedene• Hang Huang on X: https://x.com/HH_HangHuang• Hugo Alves on X: https://x.com/Ugo_alves• A step-by-step guide to crafting a sales pitch that wins | April Dunford (author of Obviously Awesome and Sales Pitch): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-step-by-step-guide-to-crafting• Clay: https://www.clay.com• Apollo: https://www.apollo.io• Jason Lemkin on X: https://x.com/jasonlk• Gavin Baker on X: https://x.com/GavinSBaker• Jason Cohen on X: https://x.com/asmartbear• Baywatch on Prime Video: https://www.primevideo.com/detail/Baywatch/0NU9YS8WWRNQO1NZD5DOQ3I8W6• Playground: https://www.tryplayground.com• ClassDojo: https://www.classdojo.com• Jason Lemkin’s post about Replit: https://x.com/jasonlk/status/1946069562723897802—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

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• The woman behind Canva shares how she built a $42B company from nothing | Melanie Perkins

  Melanie Perkins is CEO and co-founder of Canva, currently valued at over $42 billion, generating over $3 billion in annual revenue, with more than 240 million monthly active users and, incredibly, eight consecutive years of profitability. But the journey was far from smooth. Melanie was rejected by over 100 investors during her first fundraising round, her team spent two years without being able to ship a new feature during a technical rewrite, and the company pivoted early from a yearbook publishing platform to become the design powerhouse it is today. Through it all, she maintained what she calls “column B” thinking: building toward a dream future rather than just using the bricks around you.We discuss:1. How “column B” thinking helped Melanie build Canva, by starting with an impossible vision rather than existing constraints2. The power of setting “crazy big goals”3. How Canva survived a painful two-year period without shipping any new features while rewriting their codebase4. How Melanie pushed through 100 investor rejections, and how she used each rejection to strengthen her pitch5. Canva’s “two-step plan”: build one of the world’s most valuable companies, then do the most good possible6. Melanie’s vision for 2050 and why she believes imagination is the first step toward a better world—Brought to you by:Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security. https://vanta.com/lennyStripe—Helping companies of all sizes grow revenue: https://stripe.com/Justworks—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidence: https://www.justworks.com—Transcript: ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-making-of-canva⁠⁠—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/176082995/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Melanie Perkins:• X: https://x.com/melaniecanva• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanieperkins/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Melanie Perkins and Canva(04:44) Building a “column B” company(06:36) Operationalizing big visions(13:13) Crazy big goals and celebrations(22:00) Challenges and setbacks in Canva’s journey(26:30) Fundraising and investor rejections(29:36) Leadership and growth lessons(34:38) Canva’s goal-driven structure(35:46) Balancing work and personal life(38:02) Community-driven product development(40:37) The two-step plan for global impact(45:04) Canva’s biggest launch yet(48:10) How Canva approaches product expansion(52:37) AI integration in Canva(53:56) AI corner(55:22) Melanie’s vision for 2050 and beyond(01:00:07) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Canva: https://www.canva.com/• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach• Building high-performing teams | Melissa Tan (Webflow, Dropbox, Canva): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-high-performing-teams-melissa• UserTesting: https://www.usertesting.com/• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/• Calm: https://www.calm.com/• Gandhi’s quote about happiness: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/mahatma_gandhi_105593• Help us improve Canva: https://www.canva.com/help/get-in-touch/general-feedback/—Recommended books:• Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration: https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Expanded-Overcoming-Inspiration/dp/0593594649/• The Lean Startup: How Today’s Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898/• The Power of Moments: Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Moments-Certain-Experiences-Extraordinary/dp/1501147765• Designing the Obvious: A Common Sense Approach to Web and Mobile Application Design: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Obvious-Common-Approach-Application/dp/0321749855—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected] may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

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• How Block is becoming the most AI-native enterprise in the world | Dhanji R. Prasanna

  Dhanji R. Prasanna is the chief technology officer at Block (formerly Square), where he’s managed more than 4,000 engineers over the past two years. Under his leadership, Block has become one of the most AI-native large companies in the world. Before becoming CTO, Dhanji wrote an “AI manifesto” to CEO Jack Dorsey that sparked a company-wide transformation (and his promotion to CTO).We discuss:1. How Block’s internal open-source agent, called Goose, is saving employees 8 to 10 hours weekly2. How the company measures AI productivity gains across technical and non-technical teams3. Which teams are benefiting most from AI (it’s not engineering)4. The boring organizational change that boosted productivity even more than AI tools5. Why code quality has almost nothing to do with product success6. How to drive AI adoption throughout an organization (hint: leadership needs to use the tools daily)7. Lessons from building Google Wave, Google+, and other failed products—Brought to you by:Sinch—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product: https://sinch.com/lennyFigma Make—A prompt-to-code tool for making ideas real: https://www.figma.com/lenny/Persona—A global leader in digital identity verification: https://withpersona.com/lenny—Where to find Dhanji R. Prasanna:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dhanji/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Dhanji(05:26) The AI manifesto: convincing Jack Dorsey(07:33) Transforming into a more AI-native company(12:05) How engineering teams work differently today(15:24) Goose: Block’s open-source AI agent(20:18) Measuring AI productivity gains across teams(21:38) What Goose is and how it works(32:15) The future of AI in engineering and productivity(37:42) The importance of human taste(40:10) Building vs. buying software(44:08) How AI is changing hiring and team structure(53:45) The importance of using AI tools yourself before deploying them(55:13) How Goose helped solve a personal problem with receipts(58:01) What makes Goose unique(59:57) What Dhanji wishes he knew before becoming CTO(01:01:49) Counterintuitive lessons in product development(01:04:56) Why controlled chaos can be good for engineering teams(01:08:07) Core leadership lessons(01:13:36) Failure corner(01:15:50) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Jack Dorsey on X: https://x.com/jack• Block: https://block.xyz/• Square: https://squareup.com/• Cash App: https://cash.app/• What is Conway’s Law?: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365-life-hacks/organization/what-is-conways-law#• Goose: https://github.com/block/goose• Gosling: https://github.com/block/goose-mobile• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/• Claude: https://claude.ai/• Anthropic co-founder on quitting OpenAI, AGI predictions, $100M talent wars, 20% unemployment, and the nightmare scenarios keeping him up at night | Ben Mann: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropic-co-founder-benjamin-mann• OpenAI: https://openai.com/• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Llama: https://www.llama.com/• Cursor: https://cursor.com/• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Top Gun: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092099/• Lenny’s vibe-coded Lovable app: https://gdoc-images-grab.lovable.app/• Afterpay: https://github.com/afterpay• Bitkey: https://bitkey.world/• Proto: https://github.com/proto-at-block• Brad Axen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradleyaxen/• Databricks: https://www.databricks.com/• Carl Sagan’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/32952-if-you-wish-to-make-an-apple-pie-from-scratch• Google Wave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Wave• Google Video: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Video• Secret: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_(app)• Alien Earth on FX: https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/alien-earth• Slow Horses on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/slow-horses/umc.cmc.2szz3fdt71tl1ulnbp8utgq5o• Fargo TV series on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Fargo-Season-1/dp/B09QGRGH6M• Steam Deck OLED display: https://www.steamdeck.com/en/oled• Doc Brown: https://backtothefuture.fandom.com/wiki/Emmett_Brown—Recommended books:• The Master and Margarita: https://www.amazon.com/Master-Margarita-Mikhail-Bulgakov/dp/0802130119• Tennyson Poems: https://www.amazon.com/Tennyson-Poems-Everymans-Library-Pocket/dp/1400041872/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

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• Al Engineering 101 with Chip Huyen (Nvidia, Stanford, Netflix)

  Chip Huyen is a core developer on Nvidia’s Nemo platform, a former AI researcher at Netflix, and taught machine learning at Stanford. She’s a two-time founder and the author of two widely read books on AI, including AI Engineering, which has been the most-read book on the O’Reilly platform since its launch. Unlike many AI commentators, Chip has built multiple successful AI products and platforms and works directly with enterprises on their AI strategies, giving her unique visibility into what’s actually happening inside companies building AI products.We discuss:1. What people think makes AI apps better vs. what actually makes AI apps better2. What pre-training vs. post-training is, and why fine-tuning should be your last resort3. How RLHF (reinforcement learning from human feedback) actually works4. Why data quality matters more than which vector database you choose5. Why high performers are seeing the most gains from AI coding tools6. Why most AI problems are actually UX issues—Brought to you by:Dscout—The UX platform to capture insights at every stage: from ideation to production: https://www.dscout.com/Justworks—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidence: https://www.justworks.comPersona—A global leader in digital identity verification: https://withpersona.com/lenny—Where to find Chip Huyen:• X: https://x.com/chipro• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chiphuyen/• Website: https://huyenchip.com/• Substack: https://substack.com/@chiphuyen—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Chip Huyen(04:28) Chip’s viral LinkedIn post(07:05) Understanding AI training: pre-training vs. post-training(08:50) Language modeling explained(13:55) The importance of post-training(15:20) Reinforcement learning and human feedback(22:23) The importance of evals in AI development(31:55) Retrieval augmented generation (RAG) explained(38:50) Challenges in AI tool adoption(43:19) Challenges in measuring productivity(45:20) The three-bucket test(49:10) The future of engineering roles(55:31) ML Engineers vs. AI engineers(57:12) Looking forward: the impact of AI(01:05:48) Model capabilities vs. perceived performance(01:08:23) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Chip’s LinkedIn post on what actually improves AI apps: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/chiphuyen_aiapplications-aiengineering-activity-7358971409227792384-y0mf/• Prediction and Entropy of Printed English: https://www.princeton.edu/~wbialek/rome/refs/shannon_51.pdf• Why experts writing AI evals is creating the fastest-growing companies in history | Brendan Foody (CEO of Mercor): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/experts-writing-ai-evals-brendan-foody•Inside the expert network training every frontier AI model | Garrett Lord (Handshake CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-handshake-garrett-lord• First interview with Scale AI’s CEO: $14B Meta deal, what’s working in enterprise AI, and what frontier labs are building next | Jason Droege: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/first-interview-with-scale-ais-ceo-jason-droege• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• Why AI evals are the hottest new skill for product builders | Hamel Husain & Shreya Shankar (creators of the #1 eval course): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-ai-evals-are-the-hottest-new-skill• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Stanford webinar—How AI Is Changing Coding and Education, Andrew Ng & Mehran Sahami: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J91_npj0Nfw• He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor• Anthropic co-founder on quitting OpenAI, AGI predictions, $100M talent wars, 20% unemployment, and the nightmare scenarios keeping him up at night | Ben Mann: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropic-co-founder-benjamin-mann• Lenny’s vibe-coded app made on Lovable: https://gdoc-images-grab.lovable.app/• Story of Yanxi Palace: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8865016/• Steve Jobs’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/427317-remembering-that-i-ll-be-dead-soon-is-the-most-important—Recommended books:• The Complete Sherlock Holmes: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Sherlock-Holmes-Volumes/dp/0553328255• AI Engineering: Building Applications with Foundation Models: https://www.amazon.com/AI-Engineering-Building-Applications-Foundation/dp/1098166302• The Selfish Gene: https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Gene-Anniversary-Introduction/dp/0199291152• From Third World to First: The Singapore Story: 1965-2000: https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-First-Singapore-1965-2000/dp/0060197765—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected] may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

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• How to measure AI developer productivity in 2025 | Nicole Forsgren

  Nicole Forsgren created the most widely used frameworks for measuring developer productivity—DORA and SPACE. She wrote the foundational book Accelerate and is about to release her newest book, Frictionless, a practical guide for helping teams move faster in the AI era. She’s currently Senior Director of Developer Intelligence at Google.We discuss:1. Why most productivity metrics are a lie2. Signs that your engineering team could be moving much faster3. Why AI accelerates coding but developers aren’t speeding up as much as you think4. AI’s impact on engineers getting into “flow”5. Her framework for building and scaling a developer experience team6. The three components of developer experience: flow state, cognitive load, and feedback loops—Brought to you by:Mercury—The art of simplified finances: https://mercury.com/WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs: https://workos.com/lennyCoda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace: https://coda.io/lenny—Where to find Nicole Forsgren:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/nicolefv• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolefv/• Website: https://nicolefv.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Nicole Forsgren(05:09) The concept of developer experience (DevEx)(08:33) Flow state and cognitive load in the age of AI(12:02) Challenges in measuring productivity with AI(21:19) The importance of developer experience for business value(22:20) Common issues and solutions in developer experience(26:49) Signs your eng team is moving too slow(29:52) How AI is improving productivity(33:32) Real examples of productivity improvements(36:35) Introducing her new book, Frictionless(43:40) How to get started building a DevEx team(45:15) The impact of forming developer experience teams(46:15)  How to measure the impact of DevEx teams(48:53) Measuring the impact of AI tools on productivity(55:16) Survey design for developer experience(57:59) Popular AI tools for developers(59:08) Bringing a product mindset to DevEx improvements(01:00:40) AI corner(01:02:33) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• How to measure and improve developer productivity | Nicole Forsgren (Microsoft Research, GitHub, Google): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-measure-and-improve-developer• DORA: https://dora.dev/• The SPACE framework: A comprehensive guide to developer productivity: https://getdx.com/blog/space-metrics/• Measuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4: https://getdx.com/research/measuring-developer-productivity-with-the-dx-core-4/• Gloria Mark’s website: https://gloriamark.com/• Taking Flight with Copilot: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3589996• DevEx in Action: https://spawn-queue.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3639443• CodeX: https://openai.com/codex/• Devin: https://devin.ai/• Abi Noda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abinoda/• DX is joining Atlassian: https://getdx.com/blog/dx-is-joining-atlassian/• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• Cursor: https://cursor.com/• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Gemini Code Assist: https://codeassist.google/• Claude Code: https://www.claude.com/product/claude-code• The AI-native startup: 5 products, 7-figure revenue, 100% AI-written code | Dan Shipper (co-founder/CEO of Every): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-every-dan-shipper• Love Is Blind on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80996601• Shrinking on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/shrinking/umc.cmc.apzybj6eqf6pzccd97kev7bs• Ninja Creami: https://www.amazon.com/Ninja-NC301-CREAMi-Containers-Bundle/dp/B0BLGR5JPV/• Jura coffee maker: https://www.amazon.com/Jura-Nordic-Automatic-Coffee-Machine/dp/B0CF65BFZ1/—Recommended books:• Frictionless: https://developerexperiencebook.com/• DevEx Workbook: https://developerexperiencebook.com/#workbook• Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity: https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599• Back Mechanic: https://www.amazon.com/Back-Mechanic-Stuart-McGill-2015-09-30/dp/B01FKSGJYC• How Big Things Get Done: The Surprising Factors That Determine the Fate of Every Project, from Home Renovations to Space Exploration and Everything in Between: https://www.amazon.com/How-Big-Things-Get-Done/dp/0593239512/• The Undoing Project: A Friendship That Changed Our Minds: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KBM82M4/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected] may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

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