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- The RIPPLE Effect: NETWORKING for Success with Baron Manett, Shelagh Paul, and David Tsubouchi (ep.202)When it comes to networking, your strongest professional relationships are the ones you build long before you expect to need them. Learn from 3 accomplished leaders who know how the ripple effect works in real life. You will hear insights from BARON MANETT, Founder and Chief Experience Officer at PSBX, SHELAGH PAUL, Head of Global Communications at OMERS, and THE HONOURABLE DAVID TSUBOUCHI, former Ontario Cabinet Minister. They all contributed to the book “The Ripple Effect: Networking for Success,” and in this episode, they share personal stories about connection, reciprocity, and the habits that help the right people stay in your orbit. This conversation will help you rethink your approach to networking. You will learn how to make a clear and respectful ask, how to stay relevant without being transactional, how to recognize valuable peers early in your career, and how consistent behaviour builds a reputation that others trust. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH THE GUESTS Baron Manett 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/baronmanett/ 🌐 PSBX: https://www.psbx.co/ Shelagh Paul 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shelaghpaul29/ The Honourable David Tsubouchi 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidtsubouchi/ MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE 📚 Books: The Ripple Effect: Networking for Success by David Tsubouchi and Marc Kealey – https://amzn.to/3WZyqpK The Currency of Gratitude by Michele Bailey – https://amzn.to/434Vqpe The 4 C’s Formula by Dan Sullivan – https://amzn.to/49t6RMZ Who Moved My Cheese by Dr. Spencer Johnson – https://amzn.to/4nYujVE 🎧 Podcasts: The Tim Ferriss Show – https://tim.blog/podcast/ The Diary of a CEO by Steven Bartlett – https://www.youtube.com/@TheDiaryOfACEO TRANSCRIPTION Shelagh Paul: You don’t know the diamonds that are all around you in your own peer set right now. David Tsubouchi: When you’re helping others, they remember that, and they remember you. Baron Manett: To make it work in true networking, somebody has to pick up the phone. Andrea Wojnicki: Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast, where you’ll learn the communication skills so that you can communicate with confidence, credibility, and achieve your career goals. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I’m your executive communication coach. Just call me Andrea. Please check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website to learn more about all the services that we offer at Talk About Talk, including private coaching, corporate workshops and online courses. And don’t forget to hit subscribe, so you’ll never miss a new podcast episode. Today we’re talking about networking specifically what you need to do to create the network that you need later by taking action today. I have to admit, I was a little bit nervous about this episode because it’s the first time that I’ve interviewed three guests at once. Yes, the power of three me plus three. But it went really well, and I hope you agree. About the Guests: Baron, Shelagh & David All three of these guests contributed to a book on networking called The Ripple Effect: Networking for Success. You’re gonna hear from my friend Baron Manett. He’s my favorite classmate from our MBA program. He wrote a chapter called Curious, Grateful, and People First, Networking for Future Leaders. Baron is a leading Canadian brand strategist, a marketing professor, and the founder of Per Se brand experience. Then there’s Shelagh Paul, author of the chapter entitled The People on the Bus. Yes. Shelagh is a master of the metaphor, and she is also the global lead at Omers of Communications. Yes, communications. I think I have a new friend. And finally, David Tsubouchi. David’s the co-editor of this book that we’re referencing, The Ripple Effect Networking for Success, which was published in 2025. David’s chapter is entitled, be a Giver, not a Taker. I love this. He’s an accomplished leader, a former Canadian cabinet minister, and an author whose insights on generosity and connection are nothing less than inspiring. Overview: Why Networking Feels “Icky” — and How to Fix It Okay, let’s get into this. As a communication coach, I know that often people feel icky about networking, but when you’re purposeful about networking, and you make an effort. That effort can go a long way, and this conversation will provide you with many suggestions for how to make that happen. Here we go. Thank you so much, David, Shelagh, and Baron for being here today to talk to us about networking and the ripple effect. Let’s start with a big picture. The book title, the Ripple Effect, and Networking for Success. I would say that this is an evocative title. It’s a beautiful metaphor. David, can you share with us what inspired you to create this collection and to use this title? DT: I’m gonna start you off in a different direction. That wasn’t the original title that I submitted. Uh, the original title I submitted was. The no *hole rule. And, uh, the publisher reminded me that, uh, we, we have Simon Schuster distribute this in the United States, and that probably wouldn’t be a good thing to have as a title. And he was quite right because we were lucky enough to get book list, which makes recommendations, the libraries in the United States to recommend a book for the libraries down there. So it was a wise decision. So, as you know, I mean, the ripple effect, you know, one small ripple can create. Figure waves. Uh, and sometimes it’s a matter of time. I mean, networking is not something that happens overnight. It’s about creating relationships. And all of us will say the same thing. Uh, it’s a common thing throughout the book that the ripple effect, uh, is about quality, not quantity. It’s about having that circle of integrity around you. It’s like having the culture, you know, organizations have to have a good culture to be successful. The same thing with the, with, uh, your network. AW: Exactly. It’s the quality of relationships, not the quantity of relationships. And I was gonna say the term network is itself almost like, well, it’s not a network, it’s describing what it is. And I love this image of. The ripple effect, like a drop of water and how it ripples out. And it grows not just in quantity, but in quality. So networking starts with the first step, right? The drop of water. Taking the First Step: How to Reach Out Authentically Baron, in your chapter in the book, you talk about how you reached out to David you years ago, and you were, I’m gonna say a little bit nervous or anxious about doing so. Can you tell us that story and then talk generally about how we should write that first email. I get this question all the time from my clients. They’re like, it’s just awkward. How do you do that? BM: It’s a great question. It’s so great to be, uh, back on the podcast, and thanks for having us. You know, I think back on it ’cause it was approximately 20 plus years ago when I first really heard of this guy, David Tsubouchi. And I was, uh, I thought I was a kind of high Roland in advertising creative person, and I had a great idea, long story short, an idea around poker, and I thought it would be just as simple. To just, I sold it to our awesome client. It turned out to, you know, be a big program, and I just thought I’d go down to the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario, like a driver’s license kind of thing. And I just get a license. And I walked in, I said, I’m just here for my license, for my poker tournament. And the outspoken clerk behind the counter says, you whatcha talking about, you can’t have that. And then, who are you? I was like, whatcha talking about? I just give it, go ahead. Just how much is it? It’s illegal. I go, well, that’s the most preposterous thing I’ve ever heard. I go, who came up with that law? And she goes, listen, if you don’t like it, don’t complain to me. Call David Tsubouchi ’cause he wrote the law. And I went home, and I went back to the office. I looked it up, and he is right, some guy named David Tsubouchi. And so I got his number, luckily. And I called them. And here’s what’s really interesting, right? Because I talk to a lot of young people who are afraid to make the call, and I totally get that. I was afraid to make the call. So I didn’t just call the honorable David Tsubouchi government minister. I did a little bit of research. What was his purview where, you know, what was he focused on? I obviously could not talk to him on his peer level at the time, but I was hoping I could at least find common grounds of themes. And one of them was around innovation. You know, Mr. Tsubouchi liked to do things first, so did I. Common ground, even though we are different ages. But to make it work in true networking, somebody has to pick up the phone, right? Somebody has to say yes. I hear a lot of people complaining, oh, my kids are networking all they can, and I believe them. Are they as prepared as possible? But are we being good partners on the other side? If David doesn’t pick up the phone, if David doesn’t say yes to me, none of this book, none of this story happens for me. Right. So it’s a two-way street. It’s a value exchange. So thank goodness David was open-minded enough to realize that it’s not just one level. We, and now 20 plus years later, I’m trying to pay him back and so many other people by picking up the phone and saying yes. And you know, we can’t just lecture people to call into the air. So it was a great lesson for me early to come prepared. And it’s not a one-way ask ever. AW: I love that it’s not a one-way ask, and also this point about preparation. I’ve heard from some other wise folks that you wanna make it really easy for the other person to help you, but you also wanna make it. Clear that you’re not wasting their time. And I can imagine, I think I knew you back then, Baron. You’re a keen young whipper snapper, and I bet you immediately impressed him, but he didn’t have to pick up the phone. DT: Let me interject here if I could. You know, it’s how you ask to, I mean, look at all of us on this call, get all kinds of requests to meet and to talk to all kinds of people all the time. You know, when Baron called me, I didn’t know Baron from anybody else, and I just liked the tone of his voice and the way he was talking, and it wasn’t someone who was reaching out and saying, I need this from you, or whatever it is. Uh, we just had a good conversation to begin with and, you know, it’s like having a, not coming out and asking right away. But creating the interest on having a relationship with somebody else. And as you know, by now, because you know, Baron, I mean he’s very personable and, uh, he kind of sucked me in. AW: So yeah, that’s Baron’s superpower. That’s Baron’s superpower. But you’re reminding me, David, of the other thing that he said was that he identified something that the two of you have in common, right? Your quest for innovation, creativity being the first one. That’s brilliant. I talk about how this is like accelerating the relationship trajectory when you mention anything like, oh, you worked with so and so, or, oh, you’re focused on this, or whatever it is, your leadership style. Me too, whatever it is. Absolutely brilliant. Start Before You Need Something: The Early Bird Gets the Cake So Shelagh, I wanna get you in here. You talk in your chapter about how. The early bird gets the cake, and I absolutely love this. I love this. It’s powerful. Can you share exactly what you mean by this in the context of networking and what advice you have for listeners, many who have maybe early in their career, or even if you’re not early in your career. How does this early bird gets the cake fit in here? SP: Thanks, Andrea. And thank you for having, uh, me join this great group on this topic. Might that chapter or might that part of my chapter? The point was start networking before you need something. So, exactly what David just said, if you have identified someone that you might share an interest, you might really appreciate their perspective on something. That’s the best way in. So for me, it’s what about that person’s perspective on something might help me grow my own perspective on something. So I’m not asking you for an introduction, I’m not asking you for anything other than a conversation. Uh, and I think that’s the best way, and I think this insight for me happened in. I was looking back on some of the things that worked out in the best possible ways. So I was dumped into a committee, uh, in 2010, auto change, uh, when I was in the insurance business. And it was a group of people that I just found bright, fascinating, interesting. And I thought, I gotta get to know these people. I wasn’t going into it because I wanted to network with them. I just really, truly wanted to learn from them. And so doing it early and getting the cake, uh, is, has got a tie into our actual story, but I’ll leave that for now. It’s networking when there’s nothing at stake, and that’s all there really is to it. So those people in that group, in that particular story, have all gone on, and I won’t name them to do spectacular things. And we are peers. So it wasn’t again that I think when some people think about networking, they’re like, I need someone that’s maybe more senior than me, or someone that can help open a door for me. And that is a certain type of networking. But for this, I was talking about you don’t know the diamonds that are all around you in your own peer set right now. Pay attention to those two, pick the right ones, pay attention to those two because you dunno what doors that might be opened for you 20 years later. AW: I love that. And I heard you say Shelagh. I’m not just in there to network, like, it’s like, it’s almost like it’s a dirty word, right? I get this question all the time, or this response when I talk about networking, which is like, ugh.] And you’re saying get to know people before you need to. SP: Exactly. The last part of your question was about early-stage career versus maybe someone more seasoned. Hmm. And I would say early in your career, there are lots of opportunities. Get away from your desk or whatever you’re doing. Try to find other groups of people with like interests. Like Baron was saying, people that you can connect with. If you’re at a big company, they usually have employee resource groups. There’s lots of opportunities to connect with people outside of your actual job and someone more seasoned. Think about it when you’re at a table, and you’re about to debate or try to decide something together. How much fun, easier, more respectful. Will it be if you’ve already built the relationship with them before you get to the situation where you need to actually navigate a, a solution together? DT: Shelagh’s a hundred percent. Right? And, I get asked an awful lot by people, how do you meet people above your pay grade? The easiest example I can give is politics, and I don’t care if you’re what party you’re with, but if you have volunteer for a political party. You think about other people are volunteering, and a lot of the people volunteering are very important people, and they see you then as a colleague, not someone who wants something from them, but someone in a common cause. And, you know, you got a chance. I mean, I inadvertently fell into politics and meeting people as a raw kid out of law school. And all of a sudden I’m rubbing shoulders with like Mel Lastman, who’s the mayor of North York at the time, cabinet ministers, and obviously, it’s not most kid. I didn’t know anything. And, but here you get a chance to meet people way above, and you don’t need, and Shelagh’s right? You’re meeting people now as a volunteer. You’re not asking them for anything. But you know, later in life, that kind of connection. Really, really resonates because. They know you as something else other than something who wants, someone wants something. They have that camaraderie with you. So I think Shelagh’s a hundred percent right on this because you meet people, but have a genuine interest on what you’re doing and the commonality, whatever the cause is. I mean, don’t be a, you know, a mercenary going in there. You gotta be, someone really cares what’s going on. Why Nobody Wants to Be Sold To AW: Oh. As you were speaking there, I was, I kept thinking about personal branding, right? So, I’m a little bit obsessed with the topic of personal branding. It’s like you establish what you have in common with a person, but you also make it clear what value you add, what expertise you have, your unique brand, and then magical things will happen. But you’re not coming in to Shelagh’s point. You’re not coming in with the ask; you’re coming in with the let’s collaborate. Let’s get to know each other. Let’s establish a relationship, and I think a lot of people feel like they don’t know how to do that because ultimately, like, why am I going to this networking event? Ultimately, maybe it’s to somehow accelerate my career progression and they feel selfish, and they feel salesy and they’ll, they feel icky. So I’m wondering what your take is on this, Baron, in your chapter, I have a quote here. You said, gone are the days of aggressive sales pitches. Pushing your agenda at networking events, right? Like the, Hey, nice to meet you. Guess what I do? People wanna help and be helped is what you said. How exactly do we do this? I mean, it’s one thing to say that we all nod our heads. How do you actually do that? BM: I think, none of us have time to be sold to. And I think if I’m gonna have value to or add value to interrupt someone’s time if they don’t know me, or to engage someone who does know me and take up their time, how can I be helpful? How can I provide utility? And that might not be what I’m selling at the time. That might be somebody I know or experience that I can share, but I think being helpful. Has relevance, and I think we only have time for relevance now, and we don’t have time for sales pitches. That’s how I feel when people connect, meet with me, and I tell them what I try and bring to my contacts and conversations. AW: So I’m gonna interrupt this interview and challenge the listeners to do something right now. Think about who has helped you in your career, and think about how that happened, and think about how you think about that person. In terms of in your network, what role they play versus like LinkedIn, every time I log into LinkedIn, someone has sent me a connection request, and then boom, sales pitch selling me something, selling me something. Andrea, can I send you a video? Andrea, la la la. I’m like, didn’t ask to be sold to. I thought we were connecting. This is not connecting. Right. It’s become. Well, it’s gone from the networking events, right? The classic cocktail party to now happening on LinkedIn. Uh, I would say an accelerated time, and I love your point, Baron. It’s not what am I selling? It’s how am I helping for value? BM: I mean, and just to go back to something David said before, right when I first met David, we of course, career-wise, no parody. Uh, the same today, right? But what David let me do was to his point about volunteerism, he had a couple programs. He said, Hey, do you want to help, you know, with your talent set? And he let me be in the room. He let me be around the table. He let me learn how to be in the room and then when to talk and when to not talk. And I think more as leaders now, we need to be, remind ourselves of that young people need to be in the room. Right? And the same time, younger professionals, if you are gonna be in the room. You gotta earn the room. It’s a two-way street, right? A lot of people I talk to want the ball, and then they don’t know what to do with. It was fine, but just speak up. So nobody has to be perfect, but with opportunity comes responsibility, I think. SP: You know, and you’re going to an event, you’re, you’re gonna be somewhere where you know, you. I might wanna have a conversation with someone. I hope that’s everywhere, but I have a couple of back-pocket questions. Just ones that you know, and because I’ll say one of the networking events we were at for this book, a young professional came up to me and said, you’re really approachable, but I have such a hard time, you know, just coming over and starting to talk to someone. I said, well, how hard was it? So you just did it? So let’s just take that step by step. I mean, the ask was so specific. We ended up having a 20-minute conversation. We’re now connected on LinkedIn, blah blah. So and so. If he came back to me and asked me another question, I’d be all in answering it. So rather. General like you can you, again, you can smell who said it. I can smell it a mile away. When there’s an attempt to sort of flatter your career and get specific is my point. Like, ask a question and you’re gonna get a way better return on value AW: And you can get meta. So I know you’re big on communications Shelagh, as well, and just calling out the awkwardness of the event can actually be the icebreaker of the conversation, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, we’ve been talking about the in-person networking event and a little bit about networking in the digital era. And I know that, um, all of us here have. Done all of the above, right? We’ve gone to those conferences, and you go, and you fill your glass, and then you turn around and you look at the swarm of strangers that you’ve never met. And maybe if you’re an extrovert, you’re excited, and if you’re an introvert, you’re horrified, but you go in and you network versus what’s going on on LinkedIn. I’m wondering if you have any advice for professionals who are young and old again, who are looking to establish a stronger network and meaningful relationships when most of the interactions that they’re experiencing may maybe because they’re working from home or at least they’re hybrid when most of it’s virtual. Anyone can jump in on this one, SP: I think for there’s no one-size-fits-all all. So the only advice I would give in that space is figure out how to be authentic. Online, in a teams chat, in a room, whatever, people can smell through non-authentic connections. So practice. Like show some people what, like this is what I, how I might start a conversation on LinkedIn, What’s your reaction to that? And, so for people that already know you and trust you and know that your intent is good, they’ll likely say, you know what? That’s, I wouldn’t answer that. If I got that, here’s what I might do. And then I think again. We asked this question about sort of in person in the office versus on screen, and we all learned how to create relationships on screen. It’s not impossible. I still in the camp where it’s better in person, but I think again, if you can show a little soul is what I call it, it’s a little more interesting through screen than not. AW: I have a quick anecdote that I wanna share that you just reminded me of. Shelagh during one of my kids was in college, and there was parents’ weekend, which obviously didn’t happen ’cause we were being confined to our houses. So they had a Zoom call with like 50 parents or it was open, but there were like 50 parents on the screen. And I had my name Andrea Wojnicki Talk About Talk on the bottom of my screen. And someone sent me an email, and she said, I’m in the Zoom with you. I just googled Talk About Aalk. Looks like you have a very cool company. Can we set up a meeting and chat? And I was like. Wow, this is happening virtually, and I became great friends with this woman. She’s also an entrepreneur. She lives in Silicon Valley. Like you can do it online. You can use the chat, use private chat, use the public chat, put your LinkedIn profile right in the chat so other people can connect with you. What other advice do you have for making this happen in a virtual context? Anyone else? DT: Well, you know what, uh, I’ll just tell you about Murray Simpson. Murray’s one of our writers, and I didn’t know who Murray was, and he connected with me through LinkedIn, and then like I get a lot of requests to meet, uh, and I can’t do all of them obviously, but. The way he asked me, like, Baron, he said, you know, eventually we, he said, you know, could I, could you meet with him and give him a little bit of advice on his company? So I looked him up and I actually, I looked up some of the people who were supporting him, which I, I need one half, which helped out. And I said, well, I’m going downtown for a meeting down at the, uh, at Elmers. Uh, I’ll give you half an hour, you know, in the evening. Have a coffee with me and we ended up talking for three and a half hours. Wow. And we just connected on, like, I talk to Murray now three times a week. He’s like, Baron’s age too. So he is a, you know, we’re a different generation, but we connected on so many different levels, and now we do a lot of stuff together, and here’s somebody I didn’t know at all, and through LinkedIn and connected to. And of course, I guess what you have to say sometimes is, uh, you can make that connection on, on, on, through. Remotely. But ultimately I think your personality and who you are really closes the sale, AW: Your personality and being, as we said at the very beginning, authentic and focused on the other person, as opposed to, and it sounds, I was gonna say, David, your story, it sounds like it was a virtual relationship. That’s in person, and now it’s hybrid, right? To use the vocabulary that we’re using. The Power of Gratitude and Follow-Ups Okay. I’ve got two more questions for you before we move to the rapid-fire questions, if that’s okay. The first one is regarding follow-ups and thank you notes. I mean, it’s probably a sexist cliche, but your mom always told you to send thank you notes and follow up. Right? But what are your thoughts on this in the context of networking? BM: It’s a passion area for me. I actually just got my new thank-you note. It’s the first gift I got when I started, right before I started my career. Every young person I’ve met with in my career, I suggest a thank you note because, as a marketer, it is the biggest bang for your buck as a marketer. If you think about it, the price of a stamp. Talking about paper envelope, handwritten analog, and it’s delivered to your audience. I’ve received 14 thank-you notes in my career from young people. I do about 75 to 101 oh ones a year. I’ve hired half of those thank-you note writers. And the other half, I found jobs, if you wanna break through. It’s the easiest way in the world, and it’s so thoughtful, and it’s a lost art. SP: I would say in addition to what Baron’s just said, I think you have to train yourself to be appreciative, and that sounds really weird, I know that, but if it’s transactional, it’s like I just had a meeting and now I need to send a thank you note. At least you’re gonna do it. But sometimes it can feel like a chore, or I’m not really sure what I’m gonna say. I think what I found is I had to sort of change my whole, I am an appreciative, grateful person to begin with, but I’m like, how do I get in the habit of every day looking for things I appreciate? And that’s something I talk about in the book, and it’s different from a gratitude journal. It’s not the things I’m grateful for in life, of which sunlight streaming through right now. It’s a kind word from somebody in the office. It’s the crunchiness of a fresh apple. It’s something that’s brought me pure joy, and so I do five things I appreciate in the last 24 hours. Every single morning. I force myself to write those down. And then I’m not allowed to repeat anything. My dog would be on the list every time if I did. So I have to look for things to be appreciative about and what that’s done, and I didn’t realize it was gonna happen. It’s now two years in that I’ve been doing this, is I look for things to be appreciative about, whether it’s a conversation. With somebody, a hap, you know, a happenstance meeting in the kitchen, something that one of my teammates says to me that really touches me and I make sure they know. I say, thank you because you made my list today. You made me happy. You made me just a pure spark of joy. And that practice has made me more likely to do exactly what Baron just said to do, which is write a thank-you note. Let someone know what they did that was meaningful for me. DT: Shelagh, that makes you more attractive to everyone else as well. That positivity just attracts people to you. And I think that’s what people need to understand. Look, I can tell you a quick story here. I’m working at home just before Christmas, a few years ago, and I got the FM radio on, listen to the local FM station. And they had these two ladies come on, uh, talking about this women’s shelter. Locally, and I really liked them. I just listened to ’em. These things, the house was sincere, and they’re trying to raise $500 in an hour. So about 15 minutes before the program ended, I called them and said, how you doing? Said, we’re doing pretty good. We raised the $200. And I thought, well, geez. So I said, I’ll give you the $300. And so I gave him the $300. Then I get a beautiful note from these people and I thought, well that’s kind of nice now because of the note they sent me, my wife and I are that, that’s our major charity we support out here now. And, but it’s because they were thoughtful enough to send me a note, and I really appreciate it. It’s a small gesture, but boy, we remember these things as Bar said. AW: That’s a such a beautiful story, David, that really. Illustrates the point that I sometimes share with people, which is if you don’t follow up after you meet with someone, you may as well have not made the connection at all. Right? It’s closing the loop and the thank you note is a beautiful reminder and your reinforcing how important or how grateful you are. I wanted to ask you, Shelagh, do people know about your practice of writing down the five things every day. SP: I tell people now, um, I try to inspire other people to do it because I, I honestly think it changed my outlook on life doing this. So, um, I just am a happier person, but I was unhappy before. But it’s just, you know, looking for things that make you smile. And it was actually in a podcast I listened to. A couple of years back, and again, they sort of unpacked the difference between gratitude and appreciation, and I thought appreciation is just way easier. It’s way on. It’s on the fly for things to make you happy, not for things to argue about. It’s. A ripple effect, literally. AW: So one of the, my past, uh, podcast guest experts is Michele Bailey, who wrote a book called The Currency of Gratitude, and she talks about these benefits of sending a thank you. You’re closing the loop, you’re reinforcing the relationship, you’re demonstrating your values and your personality. There’s like no downside. In fact, there’s like a whole positive ripple. So, here is the last question that I wanna ask before we get to the three rapid fire question, is that I’m hoping that this podcast episode, this conversation itself will be a ripple and if someone listening, an individual listener takes action after hearing this episode, what is the one thing that you hope they’ll do? This is your opportunity for a very brief last word, or I’ll give you a sentence. Okay. About what you hope people will do differently after listening to this Baron? Yeah, BM: And that’s a great question. I would hope that I’m gonna do a two-parter. One is that maybe we’ve made it a little less scary to reach out to that person you wanna reach out to. And two, reach out with purpose, right? So the biggest gift you can give is someone’s is your time. If you’re gonna ask for that gift. The least we can do is say thank you about the gift, right? So that’s the full circle. I love what you’re talking about here. So can say thank you in a number of ways you can make donations. You can tell people how great people are, but the least you can do is say thank you. And it’s so inexpensive. And sadly, right now, a very easy way to look like the tallest, most wonderful person in the room. So I think. Don’t be afraid. ’cause you’ll be surprised how many people will say yes and pick up the phone and don’t ignore the amount of work it is for someone to make time for you, ’cause it’s extremely valuable. Okay. Shelagh? SP: I would say flip the script. Get out of this. I mean, it sounds strange for someone who’s written a chapter on networking, forget about networking. Try and get. Your own instinct, your own internal muscle around building human connection, every opportunity you get. So again, it’s not to Baron’s point, it doesn’t have to be a scary thing if you are just focused on expanding your community in the moments where you’re not actually even trying to build a network, just think about it differently. You need to change the I have to, to, I want to. You’re not gonna be successful. AW: That’s powerful. And before you need it, to your previous point, David. DT: You know, I talk to a lot of senior executives, and they have trouble networking, too. And one of the things I say to them is mentor. Because mentoring’s a two-way street. And it’s interesting how many people over the years I’ve, I’ve mentored, and years later they’ve become very successful and they always ask me if they can help me out. I’m not really after anything right now. I’m doing too much stuff right now. But it’s interesting when you’re helping others, they remember that. Remember you first of all, anytime they more need more advice or help with something or new, new project. So it’s a two-way street and I think it’s being always, again, as we talked earlier on, it’s better to give than receive and to have that degree of POS positivity in what you do. Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions AW: Fantastic. Okay. Are the three of you ready for the three? Gosh, I love this. The power of three everywhere. The three rapid-fire questions. We are gonna make this rapid fire. Okay. The first question, I think it was Baron or maybe David, who already kind of answered this on behalf of the group, but the first question is, are you an introvert or an extrovert? David? DT: Uh, introvert. AW: Shelagh SP: Introvert or Gambivert. Apparently, there’s a new category, introverts that like socializing. That’s me. So, uh, or extrovert that are, or more thoughtful, but I’m more the introvert who likes socializing. BM: Okay. Baron introvert. I wanna be alone with my thoughts. Really? Okay. Yeah. I thought I knew you, Baron. Wow. If I have a preference, I love people. I just love them over there. Yeah. AW: Okay. I know this is rapid fire, but I just wanna say, Shelagh, I didn’t wanna, um, trivialize your answer. I ask introvert or extrovert to be provocative. The truth is most of us are ambiverts. We need social time to fill us up, and we also need solitude to fill us up. DT: So, I’m a professional likes being alone in this farm. Yeah. AW: Nice. Okay, next question. I actually can’t wait to hear this. I’m gonna ask this in reverse order. What. Is or are your communication pet peeves? What infuriates you about the way other people communicate? Baron? BM: People who spell names wrong. AW: Ooh. Too many R’s and not BM: enough T’s. Right? You know, I know it’s not the easiest name, but I didn’t ask you to reach out, so just spellcheck. That’s all just details. Those things I find silly. And the no thank you is, uh, I think intolerable obviously. I’m on the record. AW: Can you, sorry. I know this is rapid fire. What do you mean the don’t thank you. BM: You gotta say thank you afterwards, after a phone call. I’m not saying, Hey, thank you. Don’t say, yeah, that’s, that’s a no-go for me. Okay, Shelagh, SP: I’m just gonna tack on Aarons, and then I’ll answer the question. I have two first names, right? So. And Paul, please trust that I know the order to put them in, and do not send me a message to Paul because I get it all the time because it’s a more familiar name, like. Have a look at how, what the person’s LinkedIn profile is. The chances are if they’ve got this far in life, they don’t have their name in the wrong order. So that would be, that would be my ask is don’t call me Paul. My communication, uh, pet peeve is actually an evident lack of curiosity. Someone is speaking to you, and they’re just speaking to get their point across, or they just wanna be told what it is you need from them or, and you know, if you’re as a communicator, if you are not curious, you are not thinking about what your audience is thinking about. And so in, in terms of growing communicators, I love stumbling across curious people, and that’s what we need more of. AW: Amazing. David. DT: Yeah. I hate it when people don’t say what they’re after. I’ve got a great interesting idea for you. I mean, tell me what do you want my help with to begin with? Secondly, I hate lazy people, so, you know, like. Someone who on LinkedIn will say to me, what do you do? My history is on my profile. Just read the stupid thing. And that automatically just, you know, thinking, well, I’m gonna delete that. AW: Yeah. Oh, I’m with you. The stupid questions that people try to open with on LinkedIn, it’s like, come on, it’s all there. I’d love to hear more about what you do as you look at my profile. Okay. Question number three. Is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending lately? Shelagh. Diary of a CEO. Oh yeah, I was just listening to it in the car. SP: So I, again, there’s a, I, this is rapid fire, so I won’t get into the tons of examples that I had that are so relevant to the conversation we’re having. But there was an episode on the small things and being able to remember the small things about people, and it’s a really interesting differentiation that I don’t think I’d put my mind to. Before, so not just their name, what they do, whatever else, but a year later, you remember their child’s name, or you remember something about the story that they told you. And most people have to write that down. So that’s again, being intentional. If you meet someone, try to remember the small details, ’cause you will stand out if you can do that. AW: Yes, people are. Really flattered when you remember personal things about them. I know speaking from experience, being on both sides of that equation, I think Diary of a CEO is really popular, and I just thought about this today when I was listening to the podcast. It is today’s Tim Ferriss podcast. ‘Cause Tim Ferriss used to interview really successful people and try to pull in like what are the skills that we can learn? And I think Diary of CEOs doing the same thing. Baron, is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending? BM: Yes, both actually. Uh, the book I’m loving right now is a book called The Four Cs, the Four Conversations by Blair Ends, who I think is the best writer of developing how to sell expertise. Certs just amazingly smart. And then the podcast I’m listening to is a marketing podcast Right now, best story wins. The podcast. Podcast. So just talk to me every week how, uh, different brand leaders come on and break down their challenges. Uh, yeah, motivating, motivating for somebody in my profession. AW: Fantastic. I’m gonna leave links to those in the show notes. And David, DT: A book I got years ago when I was in the board of, uh, Tet before, uh, uh, it was bought up by Omar years ago. The CEO give everyone on board a, a copy of Who Moved My Cheese and the simple book about. Learning a lesson from everything you go through, whether it’s positive or negative. And that’s very important for all of us. And Baron and I, oh, before the pandemic, were asked to talk to a, a big pharmaceutical company on our greatest failures because I’ve learned more lessons from my greatest failures, and I’ve had some spectacular ones than I have about successes. And so the I idea of all this is maintain that positivity. Learn from everything you undergo. AW: Be humble. Right. Okay. I’m gonna leave links to the books and the podcast that you mentioned in the show notes. I’m also going to leave links to your LinkedIn profiles and any other connections that you wanna leave with the listeners. And I just wanna end by saying thank you so much, all three of you, for sharing your unique perspectives on the ripple effect Networking for success. Thank you, David. Thank you, Shelagh. Thank you, Baron. What a great conversation. I love that. Okay, here are my top three takeaways from Baron, Shelagh, and David. First, start networking long before you need something. As Shelagh says, the early bird gets the cake. I love the metaphors. Shelagh, reach out early. When you’re simply curious or maybe when you’re grateful, not just when you need a favor. Second, remember, no one wants to be sold to. Let me say that again. Nobody wants to be sold to you can do better. So approach people with curiosity and authenticity. As Baron suggested. A great way to start is by saying, I’m not asking you for anything other than a conversation. Love it. Okay. Third, say thank you. Close the loop. Communicate gratitude. A small gesture of appreciation, like a quick note or a message, can make a lasting impression. Gratitude builds trust and strengthens relationships. And that’s it. Please take a moment to subscribe, to talk about, talk on whatever app you’re listening to, or maybe you’re watching us on YouTube. Click subscribe or follow. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post The RIPPLE Effect: NETWORKING for Success with Baron Manett, Shelagh Paul, and David Tsubouchi (ep.202) appeared first on Talk About Talk.--------40:32
- How to Craft an Out-of-Office Message That Reinforces Your Leadership Brand (ep. 201)Your out-of-office email response is an easy and effective way to communicate who you are as a leader. In this short episode, communication coach Dr. Andrea Wojnicki explains how to craft your OOO email response to reinforce your professional identity. You’ll also learn the four do’s and don’ts: be specific about dates and coverage, be consistent while you’re away, show personality without sarcasm, and don’t overshare. Listen for practical examples you can copy in minutes and start using today. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: An out-of-office message might seem trivial, but it can be a powerful way to reinforce your personal brand if you take advantage of the opportunity. How Your Out-of-Office Message Reflects Your Leadership Brand Well. It’s the holiday season. First, there’s American Thanksgiving, and then the December craziness starts. We’ve got Hanukkah, Christmas, Kwanzaa, the winter solstice, and of course, New Year’s Eve. I hope you’re able to take some time away from work to refresh and rejuvenate, and be with family and friends. I also hope you’re able to manage your out-of-office status. Have you ever considered that your out-of-office email responder is an opportunity for you to communicate and reinforce your professional identity and your leadership status? Listen. I know you’re really busy, especially this time of year, so here’s my promise to you. In this short episode, you’re gonna learn some ideas that will help you easily elevate your personal brand, all while you’re physically away from the office. Let’s do this. Let’s do this. Let’s Talk About Talk. Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. If you’re a longtime listener, welcome back, and thank you for listening. If you’re a new listener, let me introduce myself. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach here at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious professionals like you so you can communicate with confidence and ultimately achieve your career goals. You can learn more about everything we do at Talk About Talk, including private coaching, masterclasses, and corporate workshops, if you go to TalkAboutTalk.com, and there are plenty of free resources for you there as well. Alright, let’s get into this. Like I said, I know you’re busy always, but especially this time of year, and if you’re like most people, you don’t give a second thought to your out of office status, out of sight, out of mind. Well, not quite. Here’s the big insight. Spending a little bit of time managing your out-of-office status can go a long way in reinforcing your professional identity. Turn Your OOO Message into a Branding Opportunity Let’s talk first about making some tweaks to your out-of-office email responder, and then I’m gonna take you through four dos and don’ts about how to manage your time away. Okay. First, your email responder. This is also relevant for Slack or Teams or whatever messaging platform you use. If there’s an opportunity for you to customize your message, that’s what we’re talking about here. Your out-of-office response can communicate so much about your leadership style. I would call this an under-leveraged communication opportunity where it’s really so easy for you to reinforce your brand. This insight originally came up for me in a recent private coaching session that I had with a brilliant client. We were talking about the touch points that shape our professional identity, and she mentioned how she saw a very thoughtful out-of-office reply, and it made her pause and think. This really says something about who they are as a leader. And you know what? She’s right. An out-of-office message might seem trivial, but it can be a powerful way to reinforce your personal brand if you take advantage of the opportunity. Partly, I think, because people aren’t expecting it, we kind of expect the generic email, I’m away, and my response will be delayed. I’ll get back to you after I return. Hmm. This is a missed opportunity. So here’s what I do instead. First. Identify what part of your personal brand or your professional identity that you wanna emphasize. Do you wanna emphasize your thought leadership? Your people leadership, your strategic thinking. Maybe you wanna role model boundary setting for your internal team, or maybe you want to empower them while you’re away. Identify the Message You Want to Reinforce This first step is critical. Ask yourself, what’s the one message that you wanna reinforce? And then once you’ve identified this main theme, go into your email settings and craft your out-of-office responder accordingly. Make sure you reinforce that theme that you chose. Here are some examples. If you are an empowering leader, you might say something like, I’m out of the office, but my team’s got this. If you’re a strategic thinker, you might add a comment about taking time to reflect, refocus, and strategize. If you’re a boundary-setting leader, you could say, I’m offline modeling boundaries and making space for the big stuff. And if you’re a thought leader, you could say. In the meantime, while you’re waiting for my response, here’s an article or a link to a podcast episode that I think you’re gonna find helpful. You get the point. Just adding one sentence can have a big impact. I hope this inspires you to think more strategically about reinforcing your leadership style, or you could say your professional identity, through your out-of-office response. Four Do’s and Don’ts for Crafting a Standout OOO Reply And now I wanna follow up with a few do’s and don’ts. I hope you’ll consider these four pointers when you’re writing your out-of-office email responder and as you’re managing your time away. Yes, there are four more than just the power of three. 1. Be Specific About Dates and Coverage The first one is do be specific about the dates that you’re gonna be gone. And the coverage that you’ve set up, share the date that you’re gonna return, and name the person to contact with urgent needs. And here’s a bonus tip: don’t be tempted to overpromise regarding when you’ll be able to respond. If you’re coming back on January 2nd, don’t promise a response on that day. You know, it’s always more overwhelming when you get back than you anticipated. Am I right? So don’t over promise, rather under promise and overdeliver. This isn’t just about communication skills; this is life advice. Okay? 2. Be Clear About Coverage (and Then Stay Consistent!) My second suggestion is to be clear about coverage and be consistent. If you’ve identified someone who’s looking after urgent things when you’re away, then go and let them do their job. I know, trust me, it’s tempting to jump in and help out, but imagine how this feels to the person you’ve designated to step in for you. They can feel frustrated if your out-of-office responder says that you’re away, but you’re still actively communicating with them and managing through things. It’s also confusing to everyone. You work with your team and your customers, or your clients. So be clear about coverage and responsibilities, and then follow through and be consistent. So now we’ve covered the first two pointers. One. Do be specific about the dates that you’re gone and the coverage that you’ve set up. And two, be clear about the coverage and be consistent. 3. Show a Little Personality (But Keep It Professional) Number three. Show some personality. You could add a joke or something that’s relevant to your firm or your brand, but do be careful. Don’t assume that people will get your sarcasm or your quirky sense of humor. Remember, your out-of-office response goes to everyone, including prospective clients, customers, and people that you haven’t met yet. My suggestion is that you write your out of office responder with some personality, and then ask yourself, if someone read this who didn’t know me, would they be offended? Would they be confused? If yes, then edit it. Remember, sarcasm never does well in an email. Okay? 4. Don’t Overshare — Stay Safe and On-Brand Now, the last, the fourth pointer, do not overshare. Sure, a little personality is great, but the reader does not need to read your full vacation itinerary, and you don’t wanna come across as bragging. I’m off on my private jet to the Riviera, where we’re meeting some friends on their yacht. Ugh, do not do that. And also with regards to oversharing, including your full itinerary, could pose a security risk. Oh, Andrea’s whole family is away and her house is empty until January 2nd. Excellent. Let’s plan the heist now. No, no, no, no. Okay, so these are my four pointers for you. One, do be specific about the dates that you’ll be gone and the coverage that you’ve set up. Two, be clear about that coverage and be consistent. Three, show some personality, and four, do not overshare. Lead with Clarity — Even When You’re OOO I hope that this brief episode has inspired you to customize your out-of-office email responder in a way that will benefit you. Here’s the thing. The most effective leaders out there communicate with clarity and intention, even when they’re not at their desks. Your team is watching your colleagues, and customers do notice. This is your chance to model behavior, demonstrate credibility, and yes, show a little personality. So take a few minutes to craft something that reinforces your leadership style. Then your email response can do the work for you while you’re off enjoying your time with family and friends. And speaking of family and friends, please forward this episode. It’s Talk About Talk episode number 201. Share it with your family and friends who might find it helpful. And now I hope you go off and enjoy your time away. Talk soon. The post How to Craft an Out-of-Office Message That Reinforces Your Leadership Brand (ep. 201) appeared first on Talk About Talk.--------9:08
- Top 3 Communication Skills of Exceptional Leaders (ep. 200)What makes the most successful leaders stand out? The way they communicate. In this special 200th episode, communication coach Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares the three ways that leaders communicate differently based on years of executive coaching, workshops, and research. You’ll learn how to: ✔️ Shift from “speaking up” to communicating with intent and precision ✔️ Practice next-level listening to understand, not just respond ✔️ Project confidence and credibility while staying humble and growth-oriented Andrea also reveals the Top 3 most downloaded Talk About Talk episodes of all time, each one packed with tools to boost your communication confidence and impact. If you’re serious about leadership, this episode will show you exactly how to elevate your presence and influence through communication. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE Ep.169: Communicate with Confidence: Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/communicate-with-confidence-part-1-mental-preparation/id1447267503?i=1000668212684 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5JjfIbOvKM5uHkTluJ8OO4?si=c4c1b53654454bb3 Ep.154: 5 Quick Fixes to Improve Your Communication: Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5-quick-fixes-to-boost-your-communication-effectiveness/id1447267503?i=1000651033350 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1jLaxQXf9dsfWhhJFohqeh?si=b31772612b604a20 Ep.170: Introductions – How to Introduce Yourself: Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/introductions-how-to-introduce-yourself-ep-170/id1447267503?i=1000669087059 Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/episode/5Ga0FecP4SHLh4qVfPXYdT?si=ab84ea12e7e644e0 TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: Successful leaders are focused on intent and precision in their communication. By intent, I mean that successful leaders don’t just speak to fill the air. Every word, question, and story has a purpose, whether it’s to inspire, clarify, or align. How Successful Leaders Communicate Differently — and What You Can Learn from Them Well, hello there. I have an announcement. Talk About Talk is 200. This is our 200th episode. Several people have asked me how we’ll commemorate this 200th episode. Yes, this is a big deal. Andrea, will you list your top 10 episodes to date, maybe your top 10 learnings, or Andrea, we know you’re a big fan of the Power of three. Will you list your top three episodes? Sure, I can do that, but I can also do even better. In this short episode, you’re gonna learn how the most successful leaders communicate differently than everyone else. Over the last several years, I’ve coached hundreds and hundreds of executives, thousands. If you count the folks in the communication skills workshops that I’ve led. And based on my years of coaching ambitious executives, plus the podcast interviews and my research, I have some unique insight into what distinguishes the most successful leaders from everyone else. These are the insights that you wanna hear. If you are hungry to become one of these successful leaders. So I’m gonna share with you three ways that your communication must evolve if you plan to ascend to a position of leadership. And yes, of course, I’ll also share the top three Talk About Talk episodes of all time. Are you ready? Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. If you’re a regular talk about talk listener, welcome back, and thank you for listening. If you’re a new listener, welcome. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, please. Just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, and if you’re ambitious and keen to improve your communication skills to help you achieve your career goals, well, you are in the right place. And whether you’re a longtime listener or a first-time listener, I encourage you to check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website, where you can learn more about what we do here at Talk About Talk, including corporate workshops, private coaching, and online courses. And a free weekly communication skills newsletter. You can learn more on the website. Okay. As I said, people have been asking me for a while now, for several months, how we will commemorate this 200th episode. Yes, it is an important milestone, and to be honest, I have to say I am very proud. And I have this idea that’s been brewing in the back of my mind for a while. It’s this idea of focusing on how successful leaders communicate differently than everyone else. This is a topic that I don’t really hear a lot about. I don’t hear other people talking about it, but it’s critical, really. If you’re a middle or a senior manager, actually, whatever level you’re at. If you’re ambitious and you wanna become a leader with strong communication skills, what would you be doing differently? Today, I mean differently from the junior folks and even differently from the other middle and senior level folks who aren’t quite as successful. I can tell you exactly what you’d be doing differently. So I encourage you to sit back and take this in as a private coaching session. Listen to my three suggestions, evaluate them for yourself, and decide where you can get some traction in your quest to become seen as a successful leader. Communicate with Intent and Precision Alright, here goes the first way that successful leaders communicate differently from everyone else: Instead of focusing on speaking up in meetings and filling the air, you focus on communicating with intent and precision. Let me tell you how this first became apparent to me. I noticed that many of the more junior folks in my corporate workshops would share their struggles to speak up in meetings. And let me tell you so. I can relate. I remember when I was in my twenties, a recent business school graduate, sitting around the boardroom table with my boss and her boss and his boss, and I was so focused on speaking up and saying the right thing. I remember making a rule for myself that I had to speak up at least once in every meeting. I also volunteered to give formal presentations whenever the opportunity arose. It was all about speaking up and getting airtime. Have you ever noticed, though, that successful leaders never struggle with this idea of speaking up? In fact, in my experience in coaching, it seems like it’s quite the opposite. Successful leaders are focused on intent and precision in their communication. By intent, I mean that successful leaders don’t just speak to fill the air. Every word, question, and story has a purpose, whether it’s to inspire, clarify, or align. And by precision, I mean both brevity and clarity. I almost never hear more junior folks or less successful folks asking me about communicating with precision. But almost all the senior and successful folks highlight this as a key area where they wanna focus. Communicating with precision is a skill that they know they must attain. Now, before I get to the next point, I just wanna make something perfectly clear here. If you’re a junior person and you’re still earning your stripes, you’re still demonstrating the technical expertise, and you haven’t yet established your leadership brand, then by all means speak up. But if you’re in a formal leadership position in an organization, then I encourage you to shift your focus to communicating with intent and precision. So that’s the first thing. Successful leaders are less focused on speaking up and more focused on communicating with intent and precision. Next-Level Listening The second way that successful leaders communicate differently than everyone else is their next-level listening. More junior people and maybe also the less successful senior folks. They might listen intently to their boss, but it’s only to know what their boss is looking for. They might also listen passively in meetings, politely waiting for their turn to talk. Meanwhile, successful leaders listen to understand, not to respond. They listen deeply for insights. They reflect back on what they hear, and they ask clarifying questions. The successful leaders I coach fully understand that they do not know it all. They understand that they have to listen deeply to their team members so that they can be well-informed and informed enough to make important decisions. So that’s the second thing. Let’s call it next-level listening. Confidence Without Arrogance The third and last way that successful leaders communicate differently from everyone else is their ability to project confidence and credibility without arrogance. I’ve noticed a real pattern here when it comes to seniority and confidence. The more junior, early-career folks are typically focused on boosting their confidence. They talk about suffering from imposter syndrome, which, by the way is not a bad thing. This relates to the confidence of speaking up, doesn’t it? Which I just mentioned early in our careers we’re more likely to feel anxious and nervous. We know that building confidence is key. I rarely hear this from more senior folks, and particularly from these successful leaders. It’s like over the course of our careers, we evolve from anxious and nervous to more confident and sure. Some people tip the scales, and they become arrogant. These arrogant folks are the close-minded ones who think they know everything. But in my experience, this is rare. I can count the arrogant folks that I’ve coached. On one hand, interestingly, these three or four people all knew they were perceived as arrogant, but they deny it. Andrea, my boss, said that I can come across as arrogant, but really, I’m not arrogant. Okay, so here’s the thing to test. If you’re arrogant, if you worry that you might come across as arrogant. Then in all likelihood you’re not. It’s those folks who don’t worry about arrogance, who are arrogant, and if you’ve been told that you come across as arrogant, then, like I said, you probably are one thing I know for sure. Confidence is key to credible leadership. We are inspired to follow the confident, credible folks. I like to think of it as a continuum. On one end, we have paralyzing anxiety, the nervous folks. That is not good. On the other extreme, we have the arrogant folks. Also not good. In the middle, though, we have this beautiful equilibrium of perfect confidence. This is where successful leaders sit. And do you know what their secret is? What is it that keeps them at this perfect equilibrium? Not nervous and anxious, and not arrogant. It’s their growth mindset. Their focus on learning. If you’re focused on growing and learning, your anxiety will dissipate. And if you’re growing and you’re open-minded, you’re definitely not arrogant. So if you struggle with confidence, no matter what level or stage you are in your career, I encourage you to shift your mindset to focus on growing and learning. This means seeking feedback, truly listening, seeking growth and improvement. Ultimately, this can be what propels you to successful leader status, and that’s the third and last way that successful leaders communicate differently from everyone else. We covered three, of course. Three. Do you remember what they are? The three ways that successful leaders communicate differently than everyone else are: number one. Instead of focusing on speaking up in meetings and filling the air, successful leaders communicate with intent and precision. Two successful leaders are next-level listeners instead of passively listening. They listen to truly understand. And three successful leaders project confidence and credibility, and they maintain that beautiful equilibrium in terms of their confidence through what their growth mindset. Now that I’ve identified these ways that successful leaders communicate differently than everyone else, I see evidence in all three of them all the time. So I thought I had to share them with you. My challenge to you is to evaluate yourself on these three dimensions and identify where you can focus so you can get yourself one step closer to successful leader status. Celebrating 200 Episodes & Top 3 Listener Favorites In case you’re wondering what the top three most downloaded episodes are of the 200, talk about talk episodes released to date. I’m really excited to share them with you now. Number three is called. Communicate with Confidence. Part I, preparing to communicate with confidence. It’s episode number 169. In this episode, I share strategies to help you prepare for those anxiety-inducing scenarios like giving a speech or leading a big meeting. I also share some of my own disasters on stage, and I think that might be one reason why that episode is so popular. The second most downloaded episode of all time is episode 154, called Five Quick Fixes to Improve Your Communication. Yes, it’s five, not just three. And yes, there’s a quick payout for listening to this one. I cover five things you can do that will make a big difference in your communication. The number one most downloaded talk about talk episode of all Time is an early episode that quickly became and remains the most downloaded episode. I’ve also rereleased this episode a few times, most recently as episode 170, 1-7-0, so you don’t need to scroll all the way down to the early episodes. This episode is called Introductions. How to Introduce Yourself. Why is this one so popular? Well, a few reasons. First of all, I know most of us feel some anxiety regarding our self-introduction, and with good reason. First impressions are important. This three-point framework that you’ll learn in this episode is easy to remember. It’s customizable in any context, and most importantly. It works. I hope you’ll listen to all three of these popular episodes. I’ll leave the titles and the episode numbers for these top three episodes at the top of the show notes so you can easily access them and listen to them. If you haven’t done so already, and whether you’re listening on Spotify or Apple, or maybe you’re watching Talk About Talk on YouTube. Please subscribe when you hit subscribe. It helps us get traction, and it helps you make sure that you don’t miss an episode. And that’s it for Talk About Talk episode number 200. Thanks again for listening. I hope you continue to find this podcast helpful in your quest to improve your communication skills and accelerate your career. Here’s to the next 200 episodes. Talk soon. The post Top 3 Communication Skills of Exceptional Leaders (ep. 200) appeared first on Talk About Talk.--------12:38
- 5 Ways to Graciously EXIT a Networking Conversation (ep.199)Ever been stuck in a conversation at a networking event that feels a little too long? You’re not alone. In this short, practical episode, communication coach Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares five graceful ways to exit a conversation politely without burning bridges. In this episode, you’ll learn: ✔️ How to transition smoothly by connecting people with someone else ✔️ Why the “food and drink” excuse still works (when used well) ✔️ How to tell someone you want to meet other people and still sound professional ✔️ The selfie trick that creates a natural exit and helps you remember names ✔️ How to be transparent and end any chat with confidence and warmth If you ever dread awkward endings, these strategies will help you handle them with tact and ease so you can keep your conversations (and your reputation) positive. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: The next time I go to one of those awkward networking events, I am going to graciously thank the person for the connection and move on. Have you ever found yourself at one of those infamous networking events, and you’re going around and you’re meeting new people, and then suddenly you find yourself in a conversation that’s lasting a little too long? You probably have, you’re back to the wall, and someone’s firing questions at you and telling you their life story, and you’re thinking, I need to get out of this conversation. This context is awkward even for an extrovert like me. So in this episode of the Talk About Talk podcast, you are going to learn five creative, clever, and polite ways to graciously exit a networking conversation without burning bridges. The Awkward Networking Dilemma Are you ready? Okay. Let me start with a true story. This actually happened to me. I remember once I was at a networking event, there was a room full of powerful women, and I wanted to meet all of them. And I found myself, after about half an hour or so, engaged in a very intense conversation with one woman, and there was no one else around. And she was firing questions at me, and she was telling me her life story. And I remember thinking, I don’t want this conversation to go any further. I need to find a graceful exit. And you know what I did? I looked over her shoulder, and then you know what she said, Andrea, is there someone else you’d rather be speaking with? Is there somewhere else you’d rather be? And I actually thought to myself, Oh my gosh, this is like the networking event nightmare. I’m stuck talking to one person. I’m trying to figure out a graceful exit. And she actually calls me on it more on what I should have done in a moment. But first, let me introduce myself. Let’s do this. Let’s Talk About Talk. In case we haven’t met. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious executives like you to improve your communication, your clarity. And your credibility so that you can achieve your career goals. If you’d like to learn more about me, I encourage you to go to talk about talk.com, where you can read all about me and all of the services that I offer. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. I spend lots of time there and I would love to hear from you. Okay, let’s do this. Five ways to graciously Exit Networking Conversations. Connect Them with Someone Else Here’s the first one. Connect them with someone. This is actually what I should have said to that woman who asked whether I’d rather be talking to someone else. I should have quickly said. Actually, I just noticed a friend over here that I’d love to introduce you to, and that I should have grabbed her and pulled her over to a friend and introduced them, and then you have your way out, right? You’ve created a threesome and you’re the third wheel, so it’s time to leave. I’m not saying take the person you don’t want to talk to and introduce them to another unsuspecting victim. I am encouraging you to think about real positive connections that you can make. After all, this is a networking event. Use the Food or Drink Excuse You can do yourself and everybody else a favor by establishing connections. Okay, so that’s the first one. Connect them with someone else. The second one is the old food and drink excuse. Here’s what you do. You announce something like, Listen, I am famished. I haven’t had anything to eat all day. I’m gonna head over to the food table and fill my plate, and I’ll come find you later. And then you just leave. The other thing you could do is bring them with you, say. I notice you don’t have a glass of wine, or I notice you don’t have a cup of coffee. Let’s go over to the beverage center and help ourselves, and then bring them with you, and you’re bound to find other people along the way that you can meet with and talk. So that’s the second way. Announce you’re getting food and drink. Be Honest About Networking Goals My third suggestion is to turn the conversation to networking and meeting people. This is actually about telling them why you’re there. You could ask them, So what’s your objective here? And they tell you, well, I wanna learn this, I wanna meet people. And you could say, listen, I really do too. I’m really trying to expand my network. So if you don’t mind. I’d love to exchange business cards or exchange LinkedIn connections. And then I’m gonna move on, and I’ll connect with you sometime later this week, and then you leave. So the secret here is being honest and telling them exactly why you’re at the event. You want to make as many connections as possible. You want to expand your network. Make sure you tell them that you’re gonna reconnect with them later. And then make sure you do always follow up. So we’ve already covered three of the five ways that you can graciously exit networking conversation. Do you remember what they are? Number one, connect them with someone. Number two, announce that you need food or a drink. And number three, focus on networking and tell them you’re trying to expand your network. Take a Selfie Together The fourth way to graciously exit a networking conversation is to invite them to take a selfie with you. This is a great one that I haven’t heard before, but actually one of my clients who’s become a friend shared it with me. She said she finds herself in this situation all the time, and you know what she does? She says, I’ve met a lot of people tonight and I plan on meeting a lot more. So here’s what I’d love to do. Can I take a selfie with you? And if you’d like, I can send it to you, and that way we can exchange phone numbers or email addresses, however you’re sharing the photo. This is creative, and it establishes the connection and it gives you an out. So that’s the fourth thing. Invite them to take a selfie with you. Just Be Transparent The fifth and last strategy is to just tell them. Be transparent. So there’s really two ways that you can do this. Depends on how confident you are. If you’re not feeling particularly confident, you could revert to suggestion number three, right? You could tell them, listen, I’m feeling really awkward about this, but I feel like I need to move on because my whole objective, my goal for this event, is for me to meet as many people as possible. So please don’t take this personally, but I’m gonna move on. It was lovely to meet you. And then close the loop with them, right? So that’s one way of doing it. The other way that you can do this was actually inspired by a woman who I met a couple of times at different events, at dinners and cocktail parties, and she was the master of this. She would spend three to five minutes chatting with me, getting caught up, and then she’d say, Listen, I need to make my rounds. So I just wanted to say it was fantastic to get caught up with you. I look forward to seeing you again soon, and I’m just gonna move on. And then she would go. And I remember consciously thinking to myself after she did this with me a couple of times at different events, like, wow, I really want to master that, that eloquence, that graciousness. She wasn’t making excuses, she wasn’t calling out the awkwardness, she was graciously telling me how lovely it was to see me again and that she was gonna move on, and then that’s what she did, and I didn’t feel in the bit slightest. This is my goal. The next time I go to one of those awkward networking events, I am going to graciously thank the person for the connection and move on. What’s your goal? Remember the next time you go to a networking event. If you find yourself in a conversation for a little bit too long with someone, try one of these five strategies. Number one, connect them with someone. Number two, the food or drink, excuse. Number three, tell them that you’re focused on networking and meeting as many people as possible. Number four, invite them to take a selfie with you. And number five, just be transparent. Okay. That’s it for this short episode of the Talk About Talk podcast. And yes, this is episode number 199. The next episode is a big deal. It’s gonna be episode number 200. I just wanna say thank you so much for listening to the Talk about Talk podcast. If you’re not subscribed already, please hit subscribe or follow on whatever platform you’re on, whether it’s Apple or Spotify, or YouTube. Where now, yes, you can watch the Talk About Talk podcast. Thanks again for listening and talk soon. The post 5 Ways to Graciously EXIT a Networking Conversation (ep.199) appeared first on Talk About Talk.--------8:35
- How to Become a Bold, ASSERTIVE Communicator | Ivna Curi (ep. 198)How do you speak up with confidence without sounding aggressive? Leadership coach and TEDx speaker Ivna Curi shares how to find the balance between boldness and respect so your message lands with influence. In this episode, you will learn: ✔️ The important difference between aggression and assertiveness (hint: you want to be assertive!) ✔️ How the DESO framework helps you handle hard conversations ✔️ When apologetic language undermines credibility and when it builds trust ✔️ Ivna’s personal story of moving from people-pleaser to confident communicator Whether you lead teams, pitch clients, or want to be taken seriously in meetings, these strategies will help you speak boldly and be heard. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH IVNA CURI 🌐 Website: https://AssertiveWay.com 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.Linkedin.com/in/IvnaCuri/ 🎙️ Speak Your Mind Unapologetically Podcast: https://AssertiveWay.com/Podcast MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE 📖 Building A StoryBrand by Donald Miller: https://amzn.to/3IMAduF 📖 Atomic Habits by James Clear: https://amzn.to/48GtWuW 📖 Principles by Ray Dalio: https://amzn.to/4nrBnL3 📖 Acting With Power by Deborah Gruenfeld: https://amzn.to/3WhuoIF 🎧MORE HERE: Ivna interviews Andrea for her Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/how-to-identify-and-communicate-your-personal-brand/id1623647915?i=1000719522727 TRANSCRIPTION Ivna Curi: Speak to people in a way that makes them wanna hear your power in your delivery and that conviction, and then listen to people in a way that makes them want to speak to you. Andrea Wojnicki: Are you an assertive communicator on a continuum from anxious to passive, to assertive, to aggressive? Where do you stand? Do you know what the important difference is between assertiveness and aggressiveness? Yes. We want to be assertive. No, we do not wanna be aggressive. But what exactly is the difference? In this episode of Talk About Talk, you are about to find out. Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. I’m your executive communication coach, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. You can learn more about me on the TalkAboutTalk.com website. And please, if you’re not already, please subscribe or follow the Talk About Talk podcast on whatever platform you’re on. Spotify, Apple, YouTube, wherever you’re listening, hit subscribe, or follow. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. If you’re tuning into this episode, then I’m gonna guess that you could use some help with what we call self-promotion, a little help with feeling more bold and sounding more assertive and confident. If you happen to be one of the lucky few for whom this does not resonate, maybe you’re already bold and assertive; well then, I encourage you to listen anyway. But from a different perspective. As a leader, chances are a significant proportion of the folks who you work with and who report to you have serious issues speaking up and being assertive as a leader; part of your job is to make sure that everyone’s voice is heard. We call this encouraging courage. I love that we encourage courage. Whether you’re an individual seeking more courage yourself, or maybe you are a leader, making sure everyone gets heard, you’re gonna wanna hear some of the insight from our guest expert today, Ivna Curi. About Ivna Curi I met Ivna on LinkedIn. She had me at bold, unapologetic, and assertive. I knew the Talk About Talk listeners would wanna hear her message. Ivna leads practical workshops that empower leaders to navigate hard conversations with confidence, ultimately improving performance across teams. She’s also the host of the Speak Your Mind Unapologetically podcast, a TEDx speaker, a Forbes contributor, and the author of Unapologetic Voice. Here we go. Thank you for being here today, Ivna, to talk with us about using assertive language. IC: Thank you for having me, Andrea. The Power of Bold & Unapologetic Communication AW: Okay, so out of the gates, I’d love to start with some definitions. I noticed with your podcast and your TED Talk, and other things that you do on social media that you use the terms bold and unapologetic a lot, so I thought we would start there. What exactly do you mean when you say bold and unapologetic? IC: And that’s a great question because a lot of people use those terms, and everybody seems to have a different definition of what bold and unapologetic means. And I actually use unapologetic a lot because it, people are very attracted to that. Uh, they love it. However, it is not what people think. Unapologetic and being bold is not venting off. Our frustration is not purely self-expression. It’s not just being authentic. It’s not being honest and blunt. What it is, is being able to express ourselves respectfully, so fully express ourselves, our thoughts, our ideas, our concerns, our boundaries, our perspectives, everything that we are, you know, those, those important conversations, our feedback in a respectful way with the purpose of influence. So it’s not simply, let me just speak and get it out of my system. Right. And make myself heard, there’s a purpose there. There’s something that we want out of that conversation. There’s an element of influence on the other end. So it’s, it’s not about just saying whatever, or controlling other people. AW: So I heard two, I heard many things I love there, but I heard you say respectfully. Yes. And I think that’s really important too, ’cause I agree. It’s dangerous. I talk about building your personal brand unapologetically, but that doesn’t mean you’re just not being respectful and you’re not filtering. Right. So I think that’s important. And then you talked about with purpose or for with influence. So, I’m gonna start to think about that term, unapologetic, using those ideas as well. What about bold? How does bold fit in there? IC: Bold means, and here’s something that happens a lot, a lot. I see a lot of people speak tentatively with hesitation so that they can be polite and kind and nice, and that’s the opposite of bold. Bold means speaking with conviction. Bold means speaking in a way that’s definitive, being decisive, not holding back, because we wanna be polite and make people comfortable. There are other tools to do that. There are other tools to be warm and build connection, but when it’s time to express our thoughts, our ideas, our concerns, our perspectives, we gotta be bold. We cannot try to be tentatively. Polite. AW: So I heard you talking about this. I told you that I watched your TED talk, which I’m gonna link to in the show notes here and recommend men that everybody else watch it. But as I heard you speaking, even before you mentioned it, I thought of psychological safety. IC: I’ve had 13 managers in my career before I took on a completely more entrepreneurial role, and the very best one of them for me that made the biggest impact for me in my career and my ability to be productive as well. Yes, he provided psychological safety, but he pushed me towards risk every single day in the world, the world beyond him, while I was interfacing with external vendors and supply chain client, angry customers. Other leaders in the organization, they were not happy, and they were not giving me safety. Now, my manager gave me safety when he would push me towards the world, the dangerous world out there, make me speak up, basically coach me through it, but not protect me. And then he would be a safe space for me to come back and say, I, this did not work. I struggled with this. How should I do better here? Amazing. And that’s how I was able to evolve and be still able to speak up and express myself in different situations and be more independent, be more autonomous, and grow and develop as a leader. You know how they say with children, sometimes overprotective helicopter parenting can be damaging to kids, and helicopter leadership can also be damaging if it’s excessive. And sometimes, as a leader, and I’ve been there, you, we feel like we’re the mom, we’re the dad. We gotta protect from everything, all bad things. We gotta protect our, our little children, our team from any struggles, any challenges, any difficulties, any hard conversations. Psychological Safety and the Benefits of Assertive Leadership AW: So this is a nice segue, I think, to the benefits. So I’m hearing that for parents, it’s a good thing to encourage your children to take risks. For managers, it’s a good thing to encourage psychological safety and encourage your people to be bold and unapologetic. So, in the context of at work, what are the benefits of being bold and unapologetic? IC: So being bold and unapologetic. As assertive communication. So respectful communication. Yeah, with influence is very powerful because especially in hard conversations, you know how transformational hard conversations can be. Mm-hmm. To relationships, to business, to productivity, that actually enhances the quality of collaboration. Because often when people are collaborating, there’s some people who tend who are naturally more passive, more quiet, and they tend to step back and avoid conflict, which means they’re always compromising. They’re compromising on their ideas, they’re compromising on their perspectives. And so that collaboration doesn’t work because the more dominant types are always, you know, getting their way, getting their point across. And we’re not leveraging the diversity of thought of that team, of that organization, to come up with the best ideas to problem solve, to innovate, because it’s not truly inclusive, because the communication in that meeting is not truly inclusive. But if there is an environment that has psychological safety to some extent and where people, there’s an environment that, a structured environment for participation, but also people are able to communicate in a mutually respectful way with influence. Then that problem-solving ability goes up, organization’s resilience goes up, conflict reduces significantly. People spend a whole lot of time, like about a month, a year, dealing with unproductive conflict. Festering conflict. So there and miscommunication gets reduced tremendously. And miscommunication is, is is a daily reality for most leaders. True. AW: So I’m hearing a lot of the same benefits that accrue for psychological safety. Right? I feel like if you’ve created an environment where people can be bold and unapologetic, almost by definition, you have an environment of psychological safety, and so that’s why you wanna encourage those things. You mentioned that some people on your team are gonna be quieter and more passive, is what you said, right? So, to those people, what advice do you give them to encourage them to be more assertive? IC: So, a couple of things. One of them, one of the things that people who are confrontation, avoidance, and just, focus a lot more on preserving their relationship than winning or getting their point across, is they also feel like they need to feel confident before they speak up. AW: Mm-hmm. IC: They wanna be fearless and that’s just not the order of things. That’s not gonna magically happen out of the blue without speaking up or engaging in those conversations. They’re not going to start to speak up more because they’re they just suddenly became confident out of nowhere, right? That confidence comes with experience in doing something and skill. So I always encourage courage, and courage is something that we can also develop. To take that step beyond the comfort into a little bit of that risk, but in a measured, experimental way. Because people are often in their heads, and they project a fear and a consequence that’s much greater than reality. And when even if they speak up and things go in the wrong direction, and here’s what happens typically. People who tend to be more passive, right? So we have assertive, aggressive, passive, and passive-aggressive are the most common. And obviously it’s situational as well, but people have a tendency to be more passive and compromise and agreeable people pleasers, they’re scared, and they tend to, when they try to be more assertive, they tend to go too far into aggression because they don’t really know what they’re doing yet. And so when they go too far in aggression, people know them. As someone who’s, you know, always quiet and let, and letting others speak and agreeable, that causes some tension because people don’t understand, they haven’t seen this, this individual before speaking up like that. And they’re, they tend to be a little bit aggressive because they don’t know the techniques. So being able to get the manager support and saying, Hey, or put in the development plan, personal development plan, Hey, this is something that, a skill that I wanna develop. And getting the manager to support you along the journey, knowing that you will make mistakes, and it’s just part of the process. So you can get that feedback in terms of response from people. Think about what you’ve done well, what you could do better, and then try again, and the make that official so that people around you can support you in that mission is also critical. And then the last thing I’m gonna say is the skill piece. And when we don’t know how to speak up, obviously, the consequences of retaliation, backlash being seen as net, is difficult, as aggression go up. However, when we upskill ourselves, when we know what we’re doing. Yeah. And how to have these conversations and the frameworks to do so, especially the harder conversations, it de-risks that conversation and it increases our influence to achieve the outcomes, to make our message land in the other end. And when we increase the reward because people are here us to understand us, and they’re acting or responding the way we want them to respond because our influence went up and the risk goes down, then we naturally feel more inclined and more courageous and more confident to do that thing even more, which is speaking up. AW: So it can be like a sort of a vicious downward cycle. It’s like a positive upward cycle when you start to do it. So as you were describing that, even I was imagining a continuum where at one end you have people that are paralyzingly anxious, right? Yes. And then at the other end, you have aggression, and in the middle you may have an equilibrium of the ideal level of assertiveness. Does that sound kind of right? IC: Yes. And the thing that most people confuse with, like they think that it’s a bit of a personality trait, but it’s something that can be very much learned and taught. I’m naturally very passive. I avoid confrontation. I am a people pleaser. When you talk about brand, the brand I had for my, the first 10 years in my career was nice. Yeah. That was the word that people used to describe me, and I had to put in an intentional effort to develop and understand how to communicate with respect, with, yes, with kindness and empathy, but also with a bit boldness. Right. And influence to get that message across. AW: Yeah. So you said this, there’s this common pattern of folks that are a little bit more passive. When they try to become assertive, they may jump past assertiveness to become aggressive. What exactly is the difference between assertiveness and aggressiveness? Assertive vs. Aggressive: Finding the Balance IC: And that’s crucial for people to understand. Yeah. Because they get this wrong all the time. Yeah. So philosophically, it’s around control and aggressive. When we’re communicating aggressively, we’re trying to control others. And their behavior when we are assertive. We control ourselves. We’re controlling our communication so that we can influence others. AW: Back to the influence. Okay. IC: Back to the influence. And so that manifests in many different ways because sometimes a lot of people, a couple things that don’t have influence. Right. That tend to be a more aggressive, very typical, in assertive training, you always find this, which is the I language versus the U language. People use this all the time. Yeah. In aggressive communication, the very subtle things that we say, Hey, you hurt my feelings. There’s like a client that came to me and said, I was super assertive Ivna, you would be so proud of me. I had, I arranged this meeting with this person who had changed my slides last minute, all this, and I told them, you hurt my feelings. I had to break it to them. Like, listen, you were courageous. That’s beautiful. I’m so glad you took initiative and you had the conversation. But the reality is that, you know, you hurt my feelings, is can be seen as very aggressive as opposed to when this happened. You know, I felt this or this action that you did impacted me in this way. AW: This way, right IC: This way. Or another one that I see all the time is people say, you know, you made me feel disrespected or you disrespected me. Right? It sounds okay, but it’s actually, it can come across as very aggressive and judgmental, and it lacks evidence, and it’s not constructive. So there’s many different little subtle things that we say in our language that can come across as aggressive if we’re not careful. And it’s definitely not influential, right? Right. Making someone putting, making someone defensive is not going to increase our influence. When people are asking others to change behavior, and this, most people don’t, they’ll complain, but they won’t. They won’t talk about the thing that they want different, that, that to change, right? The requests, they’ll never bring that up. And when they do. It’s something like, you know, stop being disrespectful or stop interrupting me, or, I don’t like this. Versus a future-oriented, constructive invitation. Mm-hmm. To change something. Yeah. Little subtle things that make a huge difference, and I could spend a whole hour just on. These, these differences and how they manifest in our communication. AW: So one, one clear one that I heard there was saying I instead of you. Yeah. And then there’s, there’s also the one that’s a little bit closer to that, which is when you do, this is how I feel. Which might be okay. Right. But what are, are there any other little tactical tweaks that you can share in terms of our language that will keep us in the assertiveness realm and out of the aggression realm? IC: So the deso or the desk script are very famous for assertive communication, having hard conversations. The one that I teach is a version. That goes beyond that. It has a few more elements so that it can be a, it, it can vary and be adjusted based on, uh, the power dynamics, based on personality, based on how strong a relationship you have with that person, and all those other elements based on. You know, something that I see a lot like women struggle sometimes. A younger woman, maybe with an older man in, in those different elements. But the basic assertiveness script that can really help for these conversations is called DESO or DESC Script. AW: Yep. IC: So D is for describe the situation. You know, I noticed, in these meetings, I’m getting interrupted a lot, or I’ve been interrupted three times in the last five team meetings. The more specific we can get, the better, versus saying things like, you are always late, or you always interrupt me, or you never do this. The second step is explaining your sentiment or your feelings, or in a business context, it’s much better to talk about expressing the impact of someone’s actions on us or the team, or the client or the customer. It’s a lot more professional than just talking about our feelings. Yeah. AW: In the context of being productive and meeting certain objectives. IC: So that’s where the, when this happened, is the context, you know, I felt this, or the impact of this action was, their team lost, didn’t feel psychologically safe to express their thoughts, and we didn’t get enough discussion around this. Then the S stands for specifying our request. I like to call that an invitation because a request, sometimes people can feel like it’s a act as if it’s a demand, and we don’t want that. We want it to really feel like an invitation. So the invitation is forward-looking, and a great way to start this is, hey, going forward, because then people are more amenable to that versus the past is more blame-oriented. Hey, going forward, I would appreciate if you, you know, you let Sally or others in the team speak before sharing your ideas. Since you’re superior to them and they might feel threatened to speak otherwise. And the last one is O for outcomes or C for consequences, which is giving people a reason to accept the invitation, right? That way, we can make sure that we get the most collaboration out of the team. We get the most ideas before we make a decision. Right? Then getting at some level of confirmation. Does that work with you? Are you good with that? Agree. And then closing with the relationship. Once again, Hey, thank you so much for making the time to talk about this. I really appreciate your collaboration. And then you’re done. AW: Yep. And you sound confident and clear. You are not being aggressive. Right. And you’re trying to meet everybody’s business objectives and everyone’s personal objectives. Yeah. IC: Yeah. And you’re in control. You have the influence to being respectful. You have the framework, so you know the key points you wanna make. That allows you to not to make sure that they don’t derail you. Yeah. If things don’t get overly emotional. AW: Yeah. IC: So it’s very easy, very thoughtful, AW: And you know that I love a framework Ivna, right? Like I know you, you’re not talking about It’s not, yeah. It’s not a script, it’s a framework, and you can fill in the blanks and you’ll sound great. And it’s easy to remember. I love it. Okay, so on this continuum from aggressiveness to assertiveness, and here we have this kind of passive apologetic maybe. Is it ever, okay, so I’m sure you get this question from your clients, like sometimes, isn’t it okay to use apologetic language or weak language? IC: And I get in my workshops, I get a lot of pushback on this because the group usually is primarily passive. And, you know, and I’m encouraging, and some of them say, Hey, you know, here in the south, that’s, that’s what we do. You know, we, we, we ask for permission for everything, right? We apologize for everything. And I get it. There are cultural nuances at the same time, in a workplace context, it’s very different. If you’re in the bakery and you know, there’s someone in front of you and you cut, I mean, there’s a, it’s just a different situation. It’s a different situation. If you’re talking to a superior and, you know, pitching an idea. Versus talking to a direct report and trying to make them feel safe and showing vulnerability. So it’s all about being intentional with that. Generally. We also wanna role model for our teams that they can be bold. That’s okay to be bold, and it’s important to role model that as well. AW: Yeah. They’re watching you. Right? They’re watching. IC: They’re watching you both on the vulnerability, but also on being bold. Yeah. With your ideas. So being able to express ourselves, our ideas, our thoughts, our concerns, set the boundaries, whatever that is, self-expression that is respectful is, no apologies for that. AW: Right? IC: No apologies whatsoever. Yeah. Now, where does it make sense? Okay, well, we make it a mistake. Even then I would, I would be cautious about. When to issue an apology, when to talk about an apology, and when to position that in a different way for which is, for example, acknowledging the impact of our actions on others and that at least for me, it would feel so much better if someone is expressing, not just saying sorry, because it feels empty. AW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. IC: And lacks meaning if there’s not a demonstration of understanding of empathy towards the impact that person’s mistake had on me, on my team. AW: Right. IC: And an intent to change things going forward. Right. That is way more powerful than just saying, sorry. Yeah. AW: I know there’s this formula that I’ve seen a million times on social media about when you’ve done something wrong and you know you need to apologize. You go up to the person, you say, I apologize for, you label what it is that you did. Then you describe, as you said, what the negative impact was that you understand, and then you say, here’s what I’m gonna do, going forward. So you’re saying if I had to skip step one. Not, not hear the, I’m sorry. And I just had step two and three. I would be fine with that. In fact, I’d be better off. I get it. Yeah. IC: Better off. Yeah. I don’t care about the, sorry, apologize part. Yeah. Just show me that you’re committed to make things different and that you understand my perspective. AW: Yeah. So I thought you were gonna go in a different direction with this, and so I wanna just share this conversation that I had with a senior client of mine. She was running for CEO of her organization, and we were talking about her communication plan, ’cause she needed to make sure she had all the stakeholders who would, who were, had input onto the decision of who the CEO was, including a board of directors and some of the senior, existing senior executives in the organization. And she said they are very diverse, and some of them are very old school. Very hierarchically thinking, and I am the only woman contender for the CEO position, so I need to be very strategic about how I’m communicating with these folks. Never mind the gender dynamic itself. Like, never mind, like, how do I bring up the fact that I’m the only woma,n or do I bring that up? Right? There’s the whole point of how I talk. And so we, we actually created a strategy where we wouldn’t call it apologetic language, but it was more like she would use language where she’s deferring power to the other person because that’s what they expected. And again, this is, you used the word intentionality. She was very intentional about it, and she definitely comes across as a bold woman and a confident woman. But she said sometimes that can backfire. So I was just, that’s where I thought you were headed. So let’s go to the other end of the spectrum. I wanna ask you, have you ever had clients or even people in workshops who are like arrogant and like beyond aggressive. They’re just like, well, they’re probably aggressive and arrogant. Have you ever come across that? IC: They do happen, but they don’t happen often. I come across a lot more people that have the poor me victim mentality, and that’s probably harder to deal with. The arrogant types. There are people who resist feedback, and change initially, but they tend to open up and under and understand a different perspective. So I haven’t, uh, I haven’t seen truly like arrogant people. Now, arrogant people like most other of these, you know, the, these, this dysfunctional waste of communicating. They come from insecurity, from wanting to protect themselves, from wanting to command. I’ve had clients say, I wanna keep my edge so people respect me. Yeah. Wow. So Wow. AW: They don’t, I haven’t heard that one. I haven’t heard that one, but I can imagine you haven’t heard I, yeah, IC: Yeah. Like how do I keep my edge? And so what they don’t understand is that there’s, you know, I have actually whole talk about this, which is speak boldly, connect openly. Mm-hmm. I speak to people in a way that makes them wanna hear your power, your delivery and that conviction. And then listen to people in a way, in a way that makes them want to speak to you. And when you combine those and you’re able to know when to use each one and how to combine them together in important conversations, then you do not lose your edge. AW: Yeah. IC: But you do not, you’re also not controlling people. Right. People are there with you because they want to be with you. AW: Yeah. I love that. I love that. So in the vocabulary that I use, I would say communicating with conviction and credibility. Also, having a growth mindset and genuinely being interested in what other people are saying because you have a true belief that your collaboration is gonna be more effective than you just telling them what it’s not. You’re not delivering a monologue, right? You’re sharing your thoughts, and then you’re listening to their thoughts, so you can come up with the best solution or decision or whatever it is. I love that. Okay. Is there anything else before I get to the three rapid-fire questions, Ivna, that you wanna share? I guess the ultimate question is for the folks that are erring on the side of being apologetic or not assertive enough, so that they can land, they can maybe move along this continuum a little bit closer to the ideal level of bold and assertive communication. IC: I am extremely passive by nature. I’m socially anxious people pleaser. That is my, that’s who I am. My tendency, however, I felt like that was my strategic strength in the past. We talk about identities. We talked about brand. I actually thought that was part of my brand. I’m just like an easygoing collaborator. That’s who I am. Once I found the other side of, once I found the real me, nobody is authentically passive people pleaser. That’s not you. Everyone is assertive. I just haven’t hadn’t found it yet. Once I found assertive evening, oh my gosh. I’m never turning back, ever, because this evening feels empowered, feels free, feels happy. I attract the right people to my world. I can actually command people’s attention when before I couldn’t, and my self-confidence and my self-worth, we talked about self-worth all went up. Yeah, this is the real me. AW: Oh, I love it. So people pleasers are not pleasing themselves. It’s IC: I apologize for not them, they’re not pleasing themselves. Yeah. That’s not who you are. Yeah. Gotta break free and be willing to experiment. I’m all, I’m very big in social experiments, in a controlled way with the support. Try new things, figure out, learn some of these frameworks, learn how to do things so that you make fewer mistakes, how people respond, adjust, try again and people who are people pleasers tend to catastrophize the consequences of speaking up a lot more than reality. So when you start to get that real feedback loop from the environment you’re in and people starting to respond positively to your speaking up moments, that’s going to give you tremendous confidence, courage to start finding that new, more powerful version of yourself. Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions AW: Amazing. You will be quoted on that. Okay. You ready for the three rapid-fire questions? I am. Question number one: Are you an introvert or an extrovert, and how does that affect your communication? IC: So I am introverted, introverted, socially anxious, and a people pleaser. So that was me. However, none of that is static. So, when we start to expose ourselves to the thing that is uncomfortable or different, we enjoy it. When I go to conferences, I enjoy meeting new people and talking to them, but do I like to stay at home and do in solo walks? Absolutely. So it’s something that we can evolve into. Now, what I do say is a lot of people just don’t understand the differences between all of those things. Yeah. It’s important to understand a little bit of that, a little bit of psychology, so that we can not think that that is who we are and we can’t change that, or that it’s gonna somehow hurt us. AW: Right. A lot of people have a negative association with introversion, and I say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It is not a judgment. It is a way of being, and introverts typically are the best listeners. And it doesn’t mean that you are also socially anxious. You can, you know, go, like you said, go to the networking event and get out there and on stage like you’ve done. It’s just gonna take more energy, and you can manage your energy, right? Like this is a different construct than I think a lot. A lot of people think that introversion means you’re paralyzingly shy and you can’t be around people. No, no, no, no, no. IC: Right. Simon Sinek is introvert. AW: A lot. A lot of incredible teachers are actually, yes. Okay. Question number two. What are your communication pet peeves? IC: One of the things a co, there’s a couple of them. One of them is really polite people. They drive me crazy because. I can’t get a good conversation. I can’t move when their politeness is disguising what they’re really thinking, and it kills conversation. It kills the ability to find mutual value, which is what I’m always looking to explore. And so I’d rather someone be, I’d, honestly, I’d rather have someone be blunt and unpleasant than politely. Not say anything. Yeah. Politely. Boring substance. Yeah. Politely boring. AW: I bet. Doesn’t I have a hypothesis? I bet that as people are listening to this episode, they’ve got someone in their mind that they know I know someone. Very well actually, who is very polite and often during and always after my conversations with her, I always think she’s so polite, and I don’t, I have no idea what’s going on in her head. I have no idea. Right. I love that. Okay. Is what else? Any other pet peeves? IC: Yes, yes. So something that I’ve been experiencing a lot, and maybe you do too. From these people who call themselves who, who broadcast how nice they are, how servant leaders they are, how kind they are to people, and they ghost me. Like there’s no tomorrow what? They ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost. And I’m okay. I think there are circumstances where, you know, we, we, it’s fine to ghost people. That’s okay, but I’m talking about. Like, we’ve had several interactions and you’re still ghosting me. Hmm. And it is a pet peeve ’cause it upsets me. However, one of the things that assertive people do, and I keep reminding myself, is to take responsibility for things. We have the power to influence communication with other people, even if they’re not being assertive. So in all these instances, if someone’s being overly polite and expressing themselves, and if they’re ghosting me, I always have the ability to respectfully, with the right kind of questions, the right kind of action, the right kind of attitude, consistently open people up, and that’s very empowering. AW: I’ve heard, I have to tell you, I’ve heard this theme. Being ghosted as a pretty common pet peeve. Recently, I’d say in the last year, four or five people have told me that this is their pet. Oh, really? Pet peeve. Yeah. Yeah. Seems like it. And there, there are we and we, I ended up getting this conversation with, with one person expert that I was interviewing, and I admitted that I used to respond to every email and LinkedIn message that I got from anyone. And then I realized so many of the unsolicited emails were coming to me, and I just, I couldn’t do it. And someone said to me, you do not need to respond to unsolicited sales pitches. Yes. That is not ghosting someone. So, you clarified when you were just talking about being ghosted, you’re not talking about pitching someone for the first time. AW: No. You’re talking about an, you know, like a, a dialogue that suddenly stopped. Right? Yeah. IC: You’ve had 3, 4, 5 interactions. Yeah. You had meetings, you spent one hour together, three hours. You’re not asking, you’re not pitching anything. Mm-hmm. Explicitly. But people are scared of you. Yeah, they’re scared of us. They’re scared when people ghost. Here’s what my interpretation of it: they’re scared of their own reaction. Inability to handle a conversation. They can’t say no. They don’t know how to say no. They don’t know how to say, well, I have concerns. They don’t know how to express or even think through, and talk about. What’s bothering them? So insecure. AW: Well, and that gets to your point of how to, how you can, as a communication expert, make your question a way that will help them get over that. So, okay. Rapid question number three. Is there a book or a podcast that you find yourself? IC: I have to recommend my own podcast. AW: Yeah. To start with, there’s a link there. There will be a link to it in the show notes. Yes. IC: So speak your Mind Unapologetically podcast and actually listen to myself. As a reminder, because I do have to remind myself sometimes of what I teach. Yeah. So when I go on walks every now and then, or if I’m in the plane traveling somewhere, yeah. I’ll put it on my own podcast and listen to what I have to say. AW: I think that’s really, that is really smart. I sometimes, when I haven’t heard myself for a while, I go back and I listen as well, partly because I want to keep improving. But you also wanna remember certain like frameworks or whatever you were teaching. IC: Now I’m like, oh wow, that was really smart. That’s awesome. AW: I like that. That’s good. That’s good. I love that you admit that on the podcast episode. I do, I do. I’m, oh, I like that. What else? What else is in your podcast feed that you recommend? IC: I’m gonna give you books. Yep. Okay. So we talked about. Branding. I love the book. Building a StoryBrand, uh, gives a great understanding of how to build that, that, that, it just gave me really a lot of, a lot to think about. Atomic Habits was a great book, and I think about building habits around communication skills as well, and that came from that book. It’s a great book. Principles from Ray Dalio. Love Ray Dalio. Bold man. Bold thinker. If you want to have some bold thoughts on how to approach things and culture, and organization. Yeah, I really like that book. Acting With Power by Deborah Greenfield, also. Great book. I haven’t heard of that one. A Stanford professor. Okay. Really studied the whole power dynamic thing and how do you act with power, especially as a woman in a work environment. AW: Amazing. So I’m gonna put links to all of those books in the show notes. Is there anything else that you wanna leave the Talk About Talk listeners with in terms, in terms of cultivating the ideal level of assertive, bold, unapologetic communication? IC: Yeah. So embrace the process of getting there. It’s not, it doesn’t happen overnight. Surround yourself with assertive people or bold people, and that is a bit contagious as well. Uh, often when we’re not bold, we don’t feel comfortable around bold people, but I encourage you to surround yourself with that kind of people so that you can see how it works and the kind of results that it lead, it creates, and how people respond by observation, and that’s going to naturally cultivate that desire to discover how you can, and there’s no more authentic thing than being able to express ourselves fully in any environment. So that should lead the way. Figure out what’s most important to you and make sure that, and, and focusing on the goals that you have, the dreams is going to help overcome the fears of being able to speak up, so focus a lot on the dreams as well. Those were my little tips. AW: Very inspiring. Thank you so much, Ivna. I really enjoyed the conversation and getting to know you. Thank you. IC: Thank you so much, Andrea. AW: Thanks again to Ivna. Okay. The first thing I wanna say, did you catch the difference between assertiveness and aggressiveness? I think this is important. Aggressive is control of others. Assertive is controlling ourselves and expressing ourselves. One of the simplest ways to do this is simply to say, I, not you. I have something to add. I wanna share something important. I love this disciplined focus on assertiveness versus aggressiveness. We all want to be assertive, and we want to encourage it in others. Before I let you go, I also wanna highlight the DESO or DESC framework that Ivna mentioned. This was a new framework for me. As you probably know, if you follow me here on the Talk about Talk podcast or on LinkedIn or if you subscribe to my newsletter, you know I love a good framework. It’s not a script, it’s a guideline or a prompting sequence that you can customize and optimize for your context. This DESO or DESC framework will help you when you need to be assertive. It’s describe, explain, specify the consequences or outcome. So you describe the situation, then you explain or express the impact. Then you specify or invite the other person to hear a message, to make a change. And last, you clarify the consequence or the outcome. This is the impact. Sticking to this framework will help you sound confident, concise, and yes, assertive. I love this framework, Ivna. Thank you so much for our inspiring conversation. I don’t know about you, but I’m feeling encouraged about being courageous. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit subscribe, and if you’re interested in learning more about how to optimize your communication at work so you can show up with confidence and credibility, then I encourage you to check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website. There are lots of communication skills, resources for you there. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post How to Become a Bold, ASSERTIVE Communicator | Ivna Curi (ep. 198) appeared first on Talk About Talk.--------42:50
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About Talk About Talk - Communication Skills Training
Ready to improve your communication skills? Dr. Andrea Wojnicki is a Harvard-educated executive communication coach whose research focuses on interpersonal communication and consumer psychology. Learn the communication mindsets and tactics that will help you accelerate your career trajectory. Based on her research and guest interviews, Andrea will coach you on topics including: • overcoming imposter syndrome & communicating with confidence • developing executive presence & leadership skills • using AI to help your communication • communicating with precision • personal branding • storytelling • how to Introduce yourself and more! Focusing on your COMMUNICATION SKILLS means elevating your confidence, your clarity, your credibility, and ultimately your impact. Subscribe to the Talk About Talk podcast and don’t forget to sign up for the free communication skills newsletter – it’s free communication skills coaching in your email inbox!
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