Listen Then Speak

Chapters:

01:10 -The 5 stress responses: where fight fits after fawn and flight
02:30 -James 1:19: swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath
03:00 -What the fight response looks like in high performers
05:15 -How the fight response shows up in men
06:45 - How the fight response shows up in women
08:00 -The root causes: "Who told you that you had to fight?"
10:00 - Solution 1: Catch the surge before you swing
11:15 - Solution 2: Ask what the anger is guarding
12:15 -Solution 3: Practice strength under control
13:30 - Join Unprogrammed on Skool and work with Jahmaal
Key takeaways:
The fight response is your nervous system deciding a threat can be beaten. In leaders, it often gets rewarded and mistaken for being "direct."
In men, fight often shows up as open anger, dominance, and needing to win, because anger was the one emotion they were allowed to show.
In women, fight often goes underground: control, cold competence, sharp criticism, and anger turned inward.
The core belief: "If I'm not in control, I'm not safe."
Three roots: a home where you had to defend yourself, respect that had to be earned in combat, and unprocessed hurt underneath the anger.
Three solutions: catch the surge before you swing, ask what the anger is guarding, and practice strength under control through letting go and repair.
Looking for a way to reduce the "fight or flight" response and be a more stress-free, productive human being? See if a coaching session with Jahmaal is right or you: https://act-3-agency.link/lts-coach-pod

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Being busy can look like ambition, but sometimes it’s a way to avoid what we don’t want to feel.

In this week’s episode of Listen Then Speak, Jahmaal explores the flight response in high performers. It can show up as overwork, perfectionism, constant planning, or always moving on to the next goal. Jahmaal looks at how these patterns can take shape, how they may show up differently for men and women, and why staying busy doesn’t always bring the rest we’re looking for.

Episode Highlights:
0:00 - Intro
0:59 - The flight response and high performers
2:46 - When busyness looks like drive
4:13 - How flight can show up in men and women
6:29 - Where the pattern begins
8:21 - The connection between burnout and unprocessed pain
8:52 - Three ways to start changing the pattern
9:38 - Practicing stillness in small doses
11:24 - Facing what you’ve been avoiding
12:14 - Episode wrap-up
13:07 - Jahmaal’s new community for high performers
14:04 - A preview of the next episode: the fight response
Successful on the outside but exhausted in private? Explore working with Jahmaal. Complete the short qualification process to see whether his coaching is a fit.
https://act-3-agency.link/lts-coach-pod

CONNECT WITH JAHMAAL
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jahmaalmarshall/
Website: https://listenthenspeak.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ListenThenSpeakPod


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Sometimes what looks like being dependable is really a stress response in disguise.
In this solo episode, Jahmaal unpacks the fawn response and why high performers can spend years being rewarded for patterns that are actually rooted in people-pleasing, fear, and the need to keep everyone else comfortable.
He gets into how those patterns take hold, why they can be so hard to recognize, and what it looks like to start interrupting them in real life.
It’s a conversation about learning to stop treating other people’s approval like a requirement for your own peace.

Episode Highlights:

0:00 - Intro
0:25 - When your body says no but you still say yes
1:05 - Introducing the five stress responses
4:20 - Fight, flight, freeze, flop, and fawn
5:37 - What the fawn response actually is
6:01 - Why fawning can look like excellence
7:03 - Signs of fawning in high performers
8:50 - How fawning can show up differently in women
10:47 - How fawning can show up differently in men
13:18 - The belief underneath people-pleasing
14:21 - Where the fawn response can begin
16:09 - Becoming “the responsible one” too early
17:06 - When faith, culture, or family encourage self-erasure
18:42 - Three ways to start breaking the pattern
18:52 - Create a gap before saying yes
19:52 - Trace the belief back to its source
20:56 - Practice small, safe disappointments
23:14 - What healthy boundaries actually mean
Do you find yourself saying, “I need to get out of my own way”? Watch Jahmaal’s Unprogrammed webinar replay and explore the beliefs behind people-pleasing, false guilt and overworking.
https://act-3-agency.link/lts-webinar-episode
CONNECT WITH JAHMAAL:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jahmaalmarshall/
Website: https://listenthenspeak.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ListenThenSpeakPod

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Pastor Aaron Graham joins me to talk about his new book, Unshakeable Faith, and why writing it required him to confront his own fear of conflict.
Aaron is the founder and lead pastor of The District Church, a multicultural congregation in Washington, DC, representing more than 80 nations. He has spent over 15 years pastoring in the nation’s capital and holds a master’s degree in public policy from the Harvard Kennedy School.
Our conversation centers on what happens when grief, fear, and disappointment go unprocessed. We talk about the doubts that can emerge after a painful loss, the church’s response to racial injustice, and the pressure to choose a political side rather than remain grounded in your convictions.
Aaron also shares why justice requires more than spare change, how online outrage affects our interior lives, and what it looks like to hold onto both conviction and compassion in a deeply divided world.
Episode Highlights:

0:00 - Meet Pastor Aaron Graham
4:02 - Why Aaron wrote Unshakeable Faith
8:12 - The deeper emotion underneath fear
10:40 - Faith, doubt, and life-changing loss
12:34 - How unprocessed grief can become anxiety
19:22 - Deconstruction, racial justice, and the church
27:19 - Why justice requires more than spare change
30:21 - Connecting personal grief with meaningful action
38:21 - Cancel culture and divisive online voices
40:41 - Maintaining relationships across differences
47:36 - The courage to be fully known and loved

Do you find yourself saying, “I need to get out of my own way”? Watch Jahmaal’s Unprogrammed webinar replay and explore the beliefs behind people-pleasing, false guilt, and overworking.
https://act-3-agency.link/lts-webinar-episode

CONNECT WITH JAHMAAL:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jahmaalmarshall/
Website: https://listenthenspeak.com/

Interested in learning more about Aaron Graham?

Book: Unshakable Faith: How to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies.
Personal Website: aarongrahamdc.com
Church Website: districtchurch.org
instagram.com/DistrictChurch
https://www.aarongrahamdc.com/difficultconversations



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Why "just cut them off" is the wrong first move
Here's the contrarian part, and it's the part most people skip.
Every piece of advice online tells you the same thing: identify the toxic person, go no-contact, block, delete, done. And sometimes distance is exactly right. But cutting someone off doesn't answer the harder question, the one underneath the wound:
Who told you that you had to keep the snake fed?
If you keep ending up with the same viper in a different body: new job, same manipulator; new relationship, same betrayal; the problem isn't your bad luck. It's a belief you've been carrying that says your worth is measured by how much you'll tolerate. You call it being loyal. You call it being the bigger person. You call it keeping the peace. But high-functioning codependency wears respectable clothes, and it will keep you seated at the table of someone who's already decided you're the meal.
You can remove every snake in your yard. If you never ask why the door keeps getting left open, another one is already on the way.
How to spot a snake before it strikes
Discernment isn't paranoia. It's paying attention to patterns instead of performances. In the episode, Jahmaal walks through the tells:

They're fluent in your weaknesses and forgetful of your worth. A snake studies where you're soft, and files it for later.
They move differently in public than in private. Psalm 140:3 talks about tongues sharp as a serpent's. Watch what the tongue does when the audience leaves.
Confusion is the residue. You leave conversations doubting your own memory. That fog isn't an accident, it's the venom.
They reward your silence and punish your honesty. In a healthy relationship, the truth brings you closer. Around a snake, the truth gets you bitten.
If you've been calling this "just a difficult person," this section will cost you your comfortable label. Good. Clarity is the first mercy.
The wisdom to deal with toxic people (personally and professionally)
Personally, the snake counts on your history. "But we go way back." "But that's my family." "But they were there for me once." Loyalty is a virtue, until it becomes the very thing that keeps you kneeling.
Professionally, the snake counts on your ambition. You don't confront it because you need the reference, the promotion, the peace of not "making it a thing." So you swallow it. And swallowed venom doesn't disappear; it becomes burnout, resentment, and a body that starts sending you the bill.
The wisdom Jahmaal offers isn't a script for a comeback. It's a shift in posture: stop managing the snake and start leading yourself. You don't need them to change for you to stop bleeding.
The 3 moves: how to deal with the snakes in your life
This is the heart of the episode: three moves, in order. Skip one and the whole thing collapses.
1. Take inventory
You can't confront what you refuse to count. Get honest about who's actually in your circle and what they cost you. Not who you hoped they'd be; who they've shown you they are, on repeat. Write the names. Notice how your body feels before you see them, not just after. Inventory isn't cruelty; it's stewardship. You can't protect a garden you've never walked.
2. Take ownership
Here's where it gets holy and uncomfortable. The snake is responsible for the bite. But you are responsible for the access. Ownership means asking the "Who told you?" questions: Who told you that keeping the peace was your job? Who told you love means unlimited access? Who told you that saying no makes you the villain? You didn't choose the first snake. But somewhere along the way you learned to leave the gate open, and what you learned, you can unlearn.
3. Make a plan
Wisdom without a plan is just a nice feeling that fades by Monday. Decide (before the next encounter) what you will and won't allow. What the boundary is. What you'll say. What access gets revoked, what stays, and what the consequence is when it's crossed. A boundary you haven't rehearsed is a boundary you'll abandon under pressure. Put it in writing. Say it out loud. Build the fence before you need it.
Take inventory. Take ownership. Make a plan. That's how you stop being surprised, and start being sovereign over your own peace.
Key takeaways:
Being wise as a serpent isn't about becoming one - it's about refusing to be its next meal.
Cutting people off treats the symptom. Healing the belief that left the gate open treats the cause.
Discernment reads patterns, not performances. Trust the residue, not the résumé.
The snake owns the bite. You own the access.
A boundary you haven't planned is a boundary you'll break.
Frequently asked questions
How do you deal with a toxic person you can't avoid, like a coworker or family member? When you can't create distance, you create structure. Take inventory of exactly how they operate, take ownership of the access you've been granting, and make a specific plan for what you will and won't engage with. You manage the terms of contact instead of managing their moods.
Is it un-Christian/or unkind to set boundaries with difficult people? No. Jesus set boundaries constantly; He withdrew, He confronted, He named hypocrisy directly. Being innocent as a dove speaks to your motives; being wise as a serpent speaks to your discernment. Boundaries aren't a lack of love. They're love with a spine.
How do I know if I'm the problem, not them? Ownership cuts both ways. If the same conflict follows you into every room, that's worth examining honestly. The difference is pattern and posture: a snake studies your weakness and profits from your pain. A healthy person, corrected, adjusts. Take inventory of the fruit over time, not a single bad day.
What if setting a boundary costs me the job or the relationship? Then it was already costing you more than you realized (just quietly). This episode isn't about blowing up your life; it's about deciding, on purpose, what your peace is worth before someone else decides for you.

Your next step: stop feeding the snakes for good
Watch Jahmaal’s Unprogrammed webinar replay and explore the beliefs behind people-pleasing, false guilt, and overworking.
https://act-3-agency.link/lts-webinar-episode
If this episode named something you've been carrying, share it with the one person who needs to hear it, and leave a review so it reaches the next leader who's tired of getting bitten.



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