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THE FORGOTTEN UFO INVESTIGATOR: WILLIAM STEINMAN, AZTEC AND THE SECRETS OF WHITE SANDS
This week’s summer rerun is a very personal episode for host Michael Ryan.
Our guest is the late Dr. Frank Thayer—author, UFO researcher, professor emeritus at New Mexico State University and co-author of The Aztec UFO Incident. Long before appearing on UFO Talker, Frank was Michael’s journalism professor and mentor at Centennial College in Toronto. The lessons Frank taught him about journalism, writing and searching for the truth have remained with Michael throughout his career.
Since this interview was originally recorded, Frank Thayer passed away on June 28, 2026, at the age of 86. In recognition of Frank’s lasting influence, the entire upcoming fifth season of UFO Talker will be dedicated to his memory.
In this interview, Frank discusses William Steinman, the determined but largely forgotten researcher who investigated the alleged 1948 UFO recovery near Aztec, New Mexico. Steinman followed the trail left by Frank Scully’s controversial 1950 book, Behind the Flying Saucers, travelled to New Mexico and located what he believed was the Aztec recovery site.
Frank describes Steinman as an intelligent, fact-based and tireless researcher who continued defending his conclusions until the end of his life. According to Frank, Steinman possessed additional information that never appeared in his published work, and his collection of research papers may have been lost following his death.
The conversation also explores Steinman’s correspondence with Dr. Robert Sarbacher, including Sarbacher’s statements about scientists who may have been connected to classified UFO crash-recovery work. Frank recounts claims that Steinman was warned against publishing his research, suffered professionally after doing so and later believed he was being watched.
Frank also explains why he considered the alleged Aztec recovery potentially even more significant than Roswell. Unlike the badly damaged object reportedly recovered near Roswell, the Aztec craft was said to have arrived largely intact, with 16 bodies allegedly discovered inside. Frank discusses the extensive work undertaken by Scott and Suzanne Ramsey to locate witnesses and determine how such a large craft could have been transported from the mesa to Los Alamos.
The discussion then moves to the mysteries surrounding White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. Frank recounts reports of unidentified objects flying alongside experimental missiles, a landed translucent craft, automobile engines stopping beneath a hovering object, unusual V-2 missile incidents and other disturbing stories associated with the restricted military range. Some of these accounts remain unverified, but together they form a fascinating and little-known chapter of UFO history.
Highlights include:
William Steinman’s investigation of the alleged Aztec UFO recovery
Why Frank Thayer believed Steinman deserved greater recognition
Steinman’s important correspondence with Dr. Robert Sarbacher
Claims that Steinman was warned not to publish his findings
The possibility that Steinman’s unpublished research archive was lost
Witness testimony associated with the alleged Aztec recovery
How an intact craft could reportedly have been transported to Los Alamos
UFOs allegedly observed near missiles tested at White Sands
Strange aircraft and missile incidents in southern New Mexico
Frank’s friendship with Stanton Friedman
Frank’s years teaching journalism at Centennial College
His memories of teaching future Canadian comedy legend John Candy
The story behind the traditional journalism sign-off “30”
At the conclusion of the interview, Michael explains that the number “30,” heard at the end of every UFO Talker episode, has always been a quiet tribute to Frank and everything he taught him. In traditional journalism, “30” signalled the end of a transmitted news story—confirmation that there were no additional pages to follow.
Appropriately, Frank delivers the final words of this episode himself:
“30. That’s a wrap.”
Frank Thayer will be deeply missed, but his voice, his work and the knowledge he passed on to generations of students will continue.
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From the UFO Talker Summer “Best Of” Repeat Series
Season 2, Episode 9
Originally aired November 1, 2023
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Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
Male announcer: Andrew Helbig
The National UFO Records Center link here
Christine Scott's Centennial Books 1230 Broad Street. Regina, Sask.

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This week on the UFO Talker Podcast, we return to one of the most intriguing—and largely forgotten—chapters in Ontario UFO history: a series of unidentified objects reported over and around the Pickering Nuclear Generating Station during the mid-1970s.
Michael Ryan examines the work of Southern Ontario UFO researcher Dennis Prophet, a former member of the Royal Air Force who became deeply involved in UFO investigation after having his own sighting in 1974. Prophet converted a 1974 Dodge van into a mobile UFO-observation vehicle and privately published a rare booklet titled The Amazing West Hill–Pickering Sightings.
Among the incidents recorded by Prophet was a remarkable event on February 4, 1975, when CHOO Radio music director and private pilot Andy Parks reportedly saw as many as twelve UFOs near the Pickering nuclear station. Parks brought a radio news crew to the area, where the objects were also reportedly observed by three Ajax-Pickering ambulance drivers, a Durham Regional Police officer and other witnesses.
The episode also examines additional reports of bell-shaped objects over Scarborough and Pickering, including an incident in which five objects remained visible for several hours. One witness described a smaller disc apparently emerging from beneath one of the larger objects.
Michael connects these historical cases with more recent efforts to uncover information about UFO reports near Canadian nuclear facilities, including investigative journalist Daniel Otis’s attempts to obtain records from Ontario Power Generation.
Also in this episode, Christine Scott reviews The Man Who Mastered Gravity by Paul Schatzkin. The book explores the mysterious life and work of physicist and inventor Thomas Townsend Brown, his experiments involving electrogravitics, his classified military connections and his important place in UFO history as one of the founders of NICAP.
The episode also features the dramatic 1976 UFO encounter of Joseph Robichaud near Richibucto, New Brunswick, along with a roundup of Canadian civil-aviation reports involving unidentified objects.
Why have unidentified objects been reported near nuclear facilities for so many decades—and what might still remain hidden in government and corporate files?
This “Best Of” rerun was originally aired on January 24, 2024, as Season 2, Episode 21 of the UFO Talker Podcast.
Support the show
To buy UFO Talker merchandise follow this link here.
Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
Male announcer: Andrew Helbig
The National UFO Records Center link here
Christine Scott's Centennial Books 1230 Broad Street. Regina, Sask.

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What Did Captain Thomas Mantell Chase? An Interview With His Grandson, Terry Mantell
This week, UFO Talker returns to one of the most important—and tragic—cases from the early history of the UFO phenomenon.
Originally released as Season 1, Episode 21, on January 18, 2023, this episode features an in-depth interview with Terry Mantell, grandson of Captain Thomas F. Mantell.
On January 7, 1948, military personnel at Godman Army Airfield in Kentucky observed an unidentified object in the sky. Captain Mantell, a decorated Second World War pilot serving with the Kentucky Air National Guard, was asked to investigate while flying a P-51 Mustang near the area.
Mantell climbed in pursuit of the object, but his aircraft crashed near Franklin, Kentucky. He was only 25 years old. The case made headlines around the world and became one of the earliest and most consequential military UFO encounters in American history.
Terry Mantell discusses the man behind the famous case: a courageous D-Day pilot, husband and father whose family spent decades searching for answers about his death. We examine Mantell’s distinguished wartime service, his extensive flying experience and the profound effect his loss had on his wife, children and mother.
The episode also explores:
The official timeline of the January 7, 1948, encounter.
The numerous military personnel who observed the object from the Godman control tower.
Mantell’s final reported radio transmissions.
Conflicting accounts of why his two wingmen ended their climb.
The absence of statements from those wingmen in the released Air Force documents.
Early claims that Mantell had been pursuing the planet Venus.
The later theory that the object was a classified Skyhook balloon.
Questions concerning whether any Skyhook balloon was actually launched that day.
The controversial 1996 account of control-tower witness Quentin Blackwell.
Blackwell’s claim that Mantell ordered his wingmen to return for aircraft with “hot guns.”
His description of an enormous structured object with what appeared to be observation windows.
The Mantell family’s belief that important information was withheld from them.
This episode does not claim to provide a definitive identification of the object. Instead, it examines the contradictions, missing testimony and unanswered questions that have prevented the Mantell Encounter from being comfortably resolved.
At the heart of the story is a family that lost a son, husband and father while he was serving his country—and which is still waiting for answers.
Originally broadcast: January 18, 2023
Original episode: Season 1, Episode 21
Summer “Best Of” repeat release: September 2, 2026
Visit www.ufotalker.ca for more information.
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To buy UFO Talker merchandise follow this link here.
Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
Male announcer: Andrew Helbig
The National UFO Records Center link here
Christine Scott's Centennial Books 1230 Broad Street. Regina, Sask.

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SUMMER “BEST OF” REPEAT SERIES
Season 3, Episode 5 — Originally aired November 7, 2024
Two aircraft. Two encounters near Gander International Airport. Three experienced pilots—and an unidentified object that appeared to pace their aircraft.
In this summer repeat, Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott revisit a remarkable series of UFO encounters over central Newfoundland in October 1974, documented in the files of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
On the night of October 10, 1974, John Breen was flying a Cessna back to Gander from Deer Lake with passenger Janice Gould when they noticed a mysterious green luminous object below the aircraft. Breen was not only a pilot but also an air traffic controller at Gander International Airport.
For approximately 25 minutes, the strange light appeared to pace the Cessna—moving ahead, dropping behind and returning beneath the aircraft. Breen even switched off his own aviation lights to make sure they weren't responsible for what he was seeing.
As the Cessna approached Gander, Breen contacted air traffic control. Controllers attempted to locate the object and a target appeared on Gander radar for two sweeps before disappearing. According to the RCMP report, the target did not appear on the radar screen as an aircraft.
But the story wasn't over.
In the early morning hours of October 11, the captain and co-pilot of a Capital Airlines DC-8 descending toward Gander International Airport encountered another unidentified object.
This time the object displayed flashing red and white lights and flew alongside the DC-8 for approximately five to seven minutes. It would move slightly ahead of the jet before returning alongside it—the same strange pacing behaviour reported during the Cessna encounter.
Both pilots stated that, in their opinion, the object was not an aircraft. Air traffic control did not detect another target during this second encounter.
Authorities connected with the early-warning defence system at Goose Bay were notified, and the RCMP report was ultimately forwarded to the National Research Council in Ottawa.
What were these objects? And why did two different aircraft encounter something displaying remarkably similar behaviour near the same major international airport within hours of one another?
Michael and Christine examine the evidence and the intriguing details preserved in the original RCMP files.
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To buy UFO Talker merchandise follow this link here.
Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
Male announcer: Andrew Helbig
The National UFO Records Center link here
Christine Scott's Centennial Books 1230 Broad Street. Regina, Sask.

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Originally released as Season 3, Episode 17 on February 19, 2025.
Three women reported seeing an enormous UFO hovering over their Calgary apartment complex on January 2, 1975. According to statements taken by the RCMP, the silent grey craft approached from the distance before stopping approximately 350 feet above them.
Using the apartment building as a reference, the investigating officer estimated that the object may have measured approximately 180 feet long and 120 feet wide. The witnesses described brilliant lights around the craft and an unusual tan, Y-shaped marking across its underside.
The encounter became even stranger when the women reported that the normally populated area seemed strangely deserted. One witness screamed and jumped up and down as a man walked past, yet he apparently failed to notice either her distress or the massive object overhead.
Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott examine whether this disturbing sense of isolation could represent the “Oz Factor”—a sensation of altered reality sometimes reported during close UFO encounters. They also consider whether the witnesses may have experienced missing time.
Also featured in this episode:
• A 1963 Royal Canadian Air Force memo concerning Project Magnet and Canadian UFO researcher Wilbert B. Smith
• Reports of mysterious lights observed by pilots over Western Canada
• The unusual illnesses reported by former workers at Area 51
• A discussion of the important role the RCMP played in investigating Canadian UFO reports
Listen to UFO Talker on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music.

Support the show
To buy UFO Talker merchandise follow this link here.
Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
Male announcer: Andrew Helbig
The National UFO Records Center link here
Christine Scott's Centennial Books 1230 Broad Street. Regina, Sask.