Sixteen:Nine - All Digital Signage, Some Snark

• Tod Puetz, Insane Impact

  The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT If you go to big outdoor sports events, concerts in parks or even political rallies, there's a reasonable chance that what's happening is going to be relayed on a portable LED display that was wheeled into place by   trailer. My local footy team uses one and it is old and looks terrible. But that's not the norm, and certainly not for a Des Moines, Iowa company that is very specifically in the business of making and selling great-looking and bulletproof on-the-go LED trailers. Insane Impact has been at it for eight years and now has almost 500 units operating, mostly but not only in the United States. The flagship product is 17 feet wide by 10 feet tall, using 4mm LED and pushing as much as 7,500 nits. It's been designed to roll into place and be up and running in 10 minutes or less - even if a doofus like me was told to get it lit up. I had a really good chat with Tod Puetz, who started the company after first being a user, when he was in the golf equipment business. In this podcast, we get into a lot of things - including how he had the foresight to get ahead of the tariffs turmoil and pre-ordered enough electronics and hardware to hopefully ride out these uncertain months. We also talk about use-cases and probably the most curious application to date - drive-in funerals when COVID was raging. Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT Tod, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me what Insane Impact does, where you're based, those kinds of nuts and bolts questions?  Tod Puetz: Yeah, appreciate it Dave. Insane Impact, primarily focused on LED as a business, but we are an audio video integration company based out of Des Moines, Iowa.  Des Moines. So you're in flyover country? Tod Puetz: Absolutely.  It's actually very handy there because you're like two hours away from the East Coast and two hours away from the West coast, right?  Tod Puetz: It really is. Just in proximity here in the central part of the US, where our corporate office and warehouse location is about 65 seconds from the airport Des Moines International, so very easy to get in. All the major interstate throwaways between I-29 North and South and I-35 North and South, and then I-80 West. We're pretty much within minutes of getting anywhere we need to go east, west, north, or south.  Nice. How long has the company been around?  Tod Puetz: We started up in 2015, flipped the switch basically late December, 2015 and have been going rock and roll. So we're coming up on our 10 year anniversary here in December.  You are a founder?  Tod Puetz: I am, yeah. Founder and CEO.  So what compelled you to do this? What did you see in the marketplace that said, okay, this is what I should do?  Tod Puetz: Yeah, really the CliffNotes version, my former life was in the golf business. I was a manufacturer sales rep for TaylorMade Golf, and I was introduced to a gentleman here locally in Des Moines that had an older video truck and basically saw an opportunity to utilize that as a sales tool to help me sell more golf clubs.  So we took this video truck out on the driving range here locally in Des Moines, hooked it up to the launch monitor and, gosh, that was almost 18 years ago. Back then it was a big deal. Not a lot of people in your run of the mill average daily golfer really ever had an op opportunity to do that. They'd seen it on tour. But we brought the bigs out to the little team here in some of these country clubs, and again, larger than life. They were able to see their stats up on the screen and really fell in love with the technology back then, and were able to utilize that for a number of years after that initial introduction. What was it back then? What was the technology back then, early LED?  Tod Puetz: It was an SMD, It was an early 8x8 millimeter SMD back then. I refer to it as antiquated, but back then, it was pretty fresh and new. But yeah, just the idea of being able to drive this thing up to the driving range, the wings folded open on this thing and, within minutes we're plug and play and just really, fell in love with that concept. ,  Yeah. So did you buy the business from him or just get something going on your own? Tod Puetz: Did not. We utilized them. It was a kind of a one man show there. It was more of a hobby for individuals, and they used it for four or five years. But they weren't interested in scaling this thing. As my career with TaylorMade progressed more and more, I ended up working with other companies, just trying to understand the LED business. So I branched out and helped a few other smaller LED niche companies to try to generate some business in the sports space. We just had a lot of relationships with the golf business and yeah, really just took the concept and I knew there was a different mouse trap here with that type of opportunity to scale it, that's where we started things in late 2015. So the idea is just at its bare essentials, and I think most people understand this anyways, but just in case, is you've got a foldable all in one LED display that's on a trailer and your customers are rolling it out to different locations, whether they're entertainment events, sports events or something else, and finding power, plugging it in, open it, and driving a signal to it, and you've got a big display where it needs to be for three days or three weeks or whatever it is, right?  Tod Puetz: Yeah, absolutely. By no means, does Insane Impact claim to be the inventor of mobile LED. Obviously, that has been one man for a very long time. Our business, Insane Impact, started up on the rental side. We designed, fabricated and engineered a handful of units, just to service what we thought was gonna be a Midwest boutique rental business and very quickly became a national presence. And what we found was that the same people were renting products two, three and four times a year, and really, our thought process was, why don't we just own one of these things, and we can use it 365 days a year, if we want? And again, there were already customers out there, there were common trucks that were selling trailers, but it wasn't popular and we really started working back in 2016 to develop a plan where if you own the product, we can certainly start to feed your business as well, you can be part of our rental network and that's really what kind of, put the fuel on the fire. Each year, more and more units in the field, more and more customers from parks and municipalities, armed forces, college, university, all of the usual suspects out there that use these things on a regular basis, really became the traction for rapid growth in this endeavor.  So your company, it's an interesting kind of mashup of different competencies, so to speak, in that if you are manufacturing rolling stock with lots of heavy-duty metals and wheels and everything else, that's one thing. And then at the polar opposite, you've got fairly sensitive electronics. So you're doing both sides of that, right?  Tod Puetz: Yeah, absolutely. We take a fully engineered and manufactured trailer. These trailers weigh anywhere from 3,500 pounds on our smallest unit up to 18,000 pounds on a triple axle gooseneck. And they've got real high end LEDs permanently. We've approached it a little bit differently. We're putting a fixed product on it. So something that's used to and withstands the elements pretty much anywhere, including the road, and then obviously everything else on the unit is fully protected from shock, from absorption of weather. Everything's IP67 through the components side of things, and IP65 on the trailer, fully powder coated system.  So we've really built, tried, and tested a product that's gonna last and withstand the elements going up and down the road at 75 miles an hour in any extreme environment.  I'm guessing that you, in your early years, had some lessons, whether they were hard ones or whatever.  Tod Puetz: Yeah, absolutely. It wouldn't be any fun if we didn't. Our first major lesson that we learned, Dave and I think this is really what sets us apart is that we did the hang and bang modular cabinets on our product for the first, probably two and a half years and we learned the lesson real quick that those just aren't designed to withstand the long-lasting road and weather, wear and tear. At the time, that's what everybody was using it and that's kind of where we were at. It took a lot of headaches, blood and sweat, for those first two years to figure out what product really made sense. For the last four and a half years, we've really been rock and rolling on a specific product, chassis, and stuff that just really outperformed, in a big way. So that was a very painful lesson because you're a year into this thing, and you've got issues, and those are hard to come by as a startup, but we were able to weather the storm and find what really worked for us and I think that really separate us from most right now is we just, we're putting some of the best products out there on the market on these trailers. And you not only have to make it bulletproof, but I suspect you have to do it down like crazy, because this can not be something that takes 45 minutes and has a checklist, like launching a rocket or something. It's gotta roll into place and find power and open the hinges, lock them down, and get a signal in, right? Tod Puetz: Yeah, you nailed it. I think one of the things as we built this thing out, Dave, is that the single most important part was customer focus and customer friendly, and I will tell you that you yourself, or even my 18-year-old daughter, can get this thing up and running in less than 10 minutes. We pride ourselves on delivering a turnkey functional unit to our flagship product, which is our Max 1710. You can pull in, and it'll take you longer to unhook it than it will to turn it on and set it up in some respects. We offer a generator-powered option or a battery-powered option. We've got a fully self-sustained, lithium-ion pack that is performing at an incredible level right now, which we're really excited about.  So we worked with a major organization probably about 18 months ago, in the Armed Forces space, and we worked with them to design a fully self-sustainable battery pack solution and were really excited about that. We can talk about that a little bit more here, but at the end of the day, our electronics cabinet is an IP67 rated rack that basically opens it up, and as you know, with everything, we run Nova Star. So everything is just a straight playback video. So just hit the breakers, hit the power switch, and you're off and running. So we really did wanna make this thing turnkey. They come fully self-sustained with audio as well. We wanted to make sure that anybody and everybody could operate this thing very quickly.  Is there a media playout box in there, or do you use an external feed and then just plug it into an HDMI or whatever it may be? Tod Puetz: Plenty of different options. Most often our customers, like your Park and Rec municipality, the people that are using this thing to play movies and stuff, they're just streaming it off the laptop. But we got an IO box that they can drop in, SDI, fiber, anything else if you're running or whatever it might be. But yeah, anybody can bring us any signal within, within a minute, and we're up and running. So really trying to get in that turnkey facet of this thing to make sure that we're in a good spot.  Okay, so you're sourcing the trailer from a third-party manufacturer as opposed to bending metal and doing all that yourself and you're sourcing the electronics, and you're basically doing final assembly, right?  Tod Puetz: Correct. Yep.  Doing it the other way would be very complicated.  Tod Petz: We did that when we first started this little venture, we hired engineers, we bought the welders, we were buying cut parts and building them ourselves, and we realized very quickly that in a 4,000 square foot facility that when this thing takes up, it’d be impossible to keep up. So we were very fortunate to find a local vendor that was in the trailer business already but they took a liking to what we were doing, and it really has just been a wonderful partnership and relationship with them. They build a fantastic product, best-in-class warranty around it, and it's really the fit and the finish from premium laser cut, premium powder coat finishes, all the details that are there, and certainly, we work with some of the best engineers out there in the marketplace to create the best product so really exciting to have that partnership. On the LED side and the electronics side, we're taking the trailer and we're taking the electronics and we're putting the fit and finish on it and making it function and delivering a finished product.  I assume you have some sort of a contract manufacturer or a finished goods supplier in, whether it's China, Taiwan, or somewhere else you’re sourcing from. Tod Puetz: On the electronic side, yeah, we do. So we actually just made an announcement here yesterday. We are partnered with DVS (Dynamic Visual Solutions). We've been working with them for almost six years now.  Obviously, Chinese based, but we got in touch with the owner and the CEO of the US business almost six years ago and kind of started to understand what it meant for us and what it meant for them to be a partner and really have our hands on the technology, help them with some of the design elements that we needed within the product to make sure that it was gonna pass the buck and make sure that it lasted and, almost six years later. But, yeah, we just had a nice press release announcing the partnership. We got a huge opportunity with them with the craziness that’s going on out there in the space. But great company, wonderful products, best-in-class warranties, and we've had the ability to shape what that product needs to be on our trailers.  I suspect that was a bit of a journey too, finding the right supplier because we've all heard the stories about different companies who make a lot of promises, but what shows up isn't what you thought you were getting. Tod Puetz: Yeah, it was. So we had gone through probably three to five different manufacturers, three to four at least prior to getting with DVS and it’s very painful on that side of it because you are dealing with somebody over in China, and sleepless nights and figuring stuff out and a startup and all of the fun things that happen around that. When we were able to locate, DVS was based out of Florida. They really just took a liking to what we were doing and threw all the chips on the table and said, we've got a great modular rental business going, but we're really intrigued about this mobile solution. How can we help? And we really started to dig cautiously optimistic out of the gate because there are thousands of people out there trying to get the business in some respects.  Could we go to one of the major five or six? Yeah, we certainly could have, but we felt like there was a little bit more of an intimate approach to this. We were a newer company. We took our time getting into what we really wanted, and we felt like we had a little more leverage working with a decent-sized company. And with somebody who's got an office in Florida as opposed to Shenzhen or Beijing. Tod Puetz: Correct.  I don't want to get too deep into what's going on right now, but how are you navigating the tariff situation right now?  Tod Puetz: Yeah, that's the million dollar question and in some cases, multi millions. When I started this company, Dave, I had two stances that I wanted to live by. One, I was gonna over-index on our employees and make sure that we had the right people in the right seats, and take very good care of them. The other one that came later on, probably after we had established and it was I'm never gonna run out of products. I just know that if we have products, we'll sell them.  So after those first three, four years, we put ourselves in a position where we've rubber stamped our products, we know who we're selling to, we know what our core markets are, and we've got the right people in the right seats and I just knew that if I would run out of product, then I just make sure that we are collectively chasing the business. That's a really hard thing to do. But fortunately, we've got the right vendors to do this with.  So back in November, after the current administration was elected or they won the nomination, knowing that this discussion of tariffs was on the horizon, we took a very calculated and risky approach, but we went out and bought a slew of equipment. So we bought basically upwards of almost a year of supply in LEDs out front. We went to our trailer manufacturer. They bought a year's worth of supply of our top three SKUs and hedged the bet with us. So we're in a little different position than most, again, there are a lot of people out there who probably did the same thing. I'm not the only one out there who took that risk, but we did take the risk, and it's certainly paying off. That kind of gets you an idea of where we're at and how we've run our business. We just don't wanna run out of products. So fast forward to today in reality, I think there’s a blinking that’s happening, there's a stance, and this isn't a political statement by any means. This is just our gut feeling on this is, I feel like it's gotta loosen up a little bit here. It can only go so hard and so fast. But we've been able to weather the tariff storm, internally at Insane, impacted by some of the stuff we did on the front end. We have not been significantly impacted by LEDs. If we're to place orders today on LEDs. Honestly, it's been fairly minimal in the impact. We're seeing some of the expensive shipping surcharges that are happening. But I think there's just buying power that's come with some of the things that we've done with our manufacturer to keep them rocking and rolling, that have helped us mitigate a little bit of this. But you're not like some of these companies where they're wringing their hands, okay, in order to get something out of a container in Long Beach, California, I need to write a check for an extra million dollars that I had not anticipated.  Tod Puetz: Yeah, we're not dealing with that. I think where this thing's really impacted, the hundreds of, I'm just gonna call them mom and pop manufacturers over there, whether they're manufacturers or just the days of them just shipping, 12x7s into the States by air is probably coming to an end or they're pricing themselves out of the market a little bit. Either that or they just don’t care. But I think a lot of this is the consolidation in the short-term impact that we've seen in real life. The long-term impact, in my opinion, is gonna weed some of them out, and then obviously you've got all the Chinese entity companies, the larger players in the game that are having to come to market with distribution here in the US, where it impacts us the most. So they're adding additional layers of cost and it's really gonna open the door from what we're seeing, it’s gonna open the door for us to other markets by virtue of that since we’re already and established US distributor. When you first got in touch, I didn't know that much about you and thought, you're a rental company, but I was intrigued that, sure, you do rentals, but really, you're a manufacturer and you're selling to companies who are more regional rental companies. That's accurate, correct?  Tod Puetz: Yeah, it's interesting. So we've really got three business units, Dave. But we started off as a rental company with a primary focus on the mobile solution. We did have modular hanging bangs as well that we took care of some specific customers, but when we kinda uncovered the opportunity, evolved is a great word into the more offside of the business selling video trailers, that opened up a whole other segment of opportunity for us to then really start to take a look at the fixed install stuff.  Our three business units are really, primarily led by the mobile video solution on the trailers, and other new innovative products coming. Now, by the way, we do the marquees and the scoreboards and the highway signs, the airport conference room takeover stuff. We do all of that as well, and oh, by the way, customers that have video trailers, they become part of our cross-rental network. So this nucleus business unit feeds that we have, one feeds the other and that feeds another. It’s really that we create a really cool situation here that allows us to have return business from our customers in all of those different facets. Because if you can't afford it, you can rent it. If you rent it too many times, then you can afford to buy it, and oh, by the way, we can replace your scoreboard or we can replace your, your, your classroom or your theater, modular wall, whatever it might be.  We do all three of them, and we do, we feel like we do them pretty well, and again, we're very lucky to have those three business units that fill the pipeline on a regular basis.  Is there a rule of thumb as to that point where, okay, we can rent this five times a year and that makes financial sense, but there's a certain break point where it makes more sense just to buy it? Tod Puetz: Yeah, that's a wonderful question because it really comes down to there's such a tremendous education process. Again, up until maybe, really when we started, at least here in the US, there was nobody else that was mass producing or really proactively selling to the end customer, and when we started doing that, we were very fortunate just to have some relationships where they actually saw the light. “Oh, this makes sense.”  Yeah, it's a high school or a college, and they're using it for their game day stuff. But what's been more fun for me in this company is to see just the evolution of the education that's had that's happened. Going to a city administrator and telling them, hey, it's not just the three movie nights a year, it's all of your chamber events. It's the community support events, it's the fundraiser stuff. So when they start to understand the use case of these items, these trailers, and that they can turn and burn and have these things up and running, whether it's just mass notification, you've got storms coming, or just any and all of those things.  Once they understand the full use case of applications that these products can offer, then the light comes on, and then it becomes a much easier conversation for them to take to the stakeholders and say, alright, we really need this. Here are all the reasons why. So our sales team is incredibly focused on the educational side of the business on how this can impact the community, campus, etc.  I realize you have a number of different sizes and everything else, but, for your primary selling unit, what would that cost?  And if I wanted to rent it for a weekend, if I'm in Ames, Iowa, what would that cost to rent it for a weekend?  Tod Puetz: Yeah, great question. So our flagship product is our Max 1710. So 17 wide, 10 foot tall, 3.9 millimeters on their turnkey generator operation, delivery, and tech. To rent that thing for a day, in this market, it does vary a little bit based on coast to coast. You get a three-day festival and you're spending $7,500 to 8,000 bucks for a screen that's operated that comes turnkey, that has power if needed. That's gonna turn the lights on and be reliable. So that's a pretty good snapshot of what we offer from a rate card on that specific product. If somebody wants to buy it, I'm gonna say turnkey trailer screen electronics, generator, audio. If you want the Mac Daddy package delivered to your doorstep, you're in that $150-160k range, which is gonna get you, 10-year parts, five-year labor on LED screen warranty, five-year parts, five-year labor on the trailer warranty, and then obviously an electronics warranty. So you're really protecting the investment there, Dave.  We're not the most expensive in the marketplace. We're definitely not the least. We feel like we're in a really good slot, and I think our adoption within the marketplace probably supports that. But that gives you a quick snapshot of where we're at from the pricing structure. So if you're a company that's on the rental side of it, you could see an ROI in a year if you're in a busy market.  Tod Puetz: Absolutely. Yeah. I think, 1710, and this doesn't factor in your cogs, your travel, your truck, your tech, etc. Sure. But if you get 20 to 25 really strong rental events within your market on a single day's use, you're right there certainly, being able to pay it back.  And it goes back to that education process. When we sell a customer a unit, we don't guarantee them any business, in terms of what we can bring to them from the cross-rental network. We're very forthright about that. But what does happen is if you're a proven, vetted, rental partner out there in the marketplace, you can bet, you're gonna get some help with monetizing this thing. That's the unique part about this business relationship with our customers on the trailer side is: we're gonna help you guys monetize the unit over time.  I have season tickets to the local Canadian Premier League soccer team that does very well here. They pull 6,500 people to games, but it's at a somewhat temporary stadium, and they have an LED display, it looks like maybe a 17x10 on a truck.  I severely doubt it's yours because it's a piece of crap. It's not very bright, it's not very crisp or anything, but it's something, so I gather that this can be all over the map in terms of what you rent. If you're an end user, you have to pay attention to the specs.  Tod Puetz: Absolutely. We prided ourselves on being the leader when it comes to what products are out there on mobile products, in and of itself. But it really comes down to the screen at the end of the day. I guess we will probably take it a step further. We do take a lot of pride in the physical trailer itself, the metal that this thing rides on, because that's as important to me as it's the LED.  But at the end of the day, having something that you can put up in direct sunlight and have the most quality, crisp image, is what we've over-indexed on that in a good way. So what we come to market with is a 7500 nit, 3.9 product, competitively in the marketplace. 3.9 from our core competitors are in that 4500-5500 nit and it just overpowers everything.  So again, if you're rolling up to the game for a little pre-game watch party, you're gonna get the best viewing experience possible, with some of the product. But we do pay a lot of attention to the spec, the physical components, the quality, and that's very close to our chest, so we don’t take that for granted. So you're doing lots of sports and entertainment events, probably some corporate events. I'm curious, what's the most unusual one that you're aware of?  Tod Puetz: It was interesting. You look at Covid and the impact that it had on the industry, and all of these companies out there that have stages and rigging and modular and everything else, they took a little bit of a bath at the onset of Covid, and really, what allowed us to squeeze in and continue to, I would say, entertain, but take care of customers that had to continue to engage, whether it was employees or crowds or whatever.  So we did everything. But this leads up to your question, doing drive-in funerals was probably one of the most unique things that we've done. They couldn't get into the churches, so we were pulling up to large parking lots and they were streaming the funeral from inside the church out to the streets. It was really wild, but I bet we did anywhere from 50 to 60 funerals in late 2020 and in early 2021 until the restrictions relaxed a little bit. So we had funeral homes. We probably have three or four customers that actually own these, as a result of Covid, and they continue to use them for different settings in the church and funeral space. That would be the one that comes to mind, honestly, is that kind of the most bizarre one that you never really think about? Yeah.  How many units do you have out there, roughly?  Tod Puetz: Yeah, so we shipped the first unit in January of 2017 to a gasoline company in Texas. By the end of this month, the end of April, we delivered right around 495 units into the marketplace all around the US. We've got some army bases and navy bases over in Japan. We've got a handful of units over in Europe, a good chunk over in Hawaii, obviously I know that's US, but largely, 95 to 97% of what we've got is here in the lower 48. We do have a few up in your neck of the woods as well, but, yeah, we've been very to lead the charge there as it relates to the go to product in the marketplace. Super interesting. If people wanna know more, they just find you at insaneimpact.com?  Tod Puetz: Yeah, InsaneImpact.com. They can learn a little bit more about everything we do, but it's an exciting time for us. I know there's a little bit of uncertainty and doom and gloom, but we're just keeping our heads down. We’ve got customers that want the product. They may want it, but how do we get them to realize that they need the product to continue to advance their business, regardless of the sector, and I think if they get in touch with our folks, we're putting ourselves in a good spot to provide really good information and provide a great solid starting base for our conversation. I'm impressed with the advanced planning that you did. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who were sitting around this week and saying, I didn't see that coming.  Tod Puetz: Head on a swivel constantly, there's no question.  Alright, Todd, thanks very much for taking the time.  Tod Puetz: Dave, I appreciate you. Take care now!

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  37:07
• Jose Behar, Zynchro

  The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT Every so often I'll get a call or email from an industry friend asking me about a software company called Zynchro, because they were in the mix, or the incumbent, on some sort of deal that was in play. Yes, I'd say. I've heard of them. But that was about it. Well, that's changed, as I had a good chat recently with Jose Behar, one of the two brothers who founded the company some 30 years ago. Zynchro has very quietly built up a nice book of business, mostly in the United States, with SaaS software marketed on the basis of flexibility, rock-solid reliability and low annual costs. By its own admission, the Dallas-based company operates very quietly. But the installed base is north of 50,000 devices, many of them involving a couple of giant global brands. Like most whale clients, Zynchro can't quite say who those are ... but have a listen, and it becomes fairly obvious. Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT Jose, thank you for joining me. I have heard about Zynchro, but we've never met, at least, I don't think so, and while I've heard about the company, I don't know a lot about it, and you're one of those companies that seems to be very active, quite successful, but kinda an old World War II submarine. You're running silent and deep.  Jose Behar: Yes, we were silent for a long time. Even when my brother and I started a company 30 years ago, we started doing multimedia and CGI animation, and one of our ways to do business was to keep networking, being a little bit silent on the media, but having a lot of reputation among client to client, mouth to mouth.  So if I bumped into you in an elevator, and I'm not in this business and asked, oh, what do you do? What does your company do? What would you tell them?  Jose Behar: Zynchro is a digital signage platform SaaS, software as a service. So, our clients can use Zynchro for different kinds of applications and in a lot of vertical markets. Zynchro is not only a content manager. Maybe a lot of our clients, or the people that hear about us, look at us as content managers, but we have different modules. We now have four modules, and we are developing two more for health monitoring for all the players in the network. Also, analytics, all kinds of different analytics for interactive and non-interactive presentations. Of course, the content management, and we also have the campaign module. The campaign module is the monetizing area.  One of our biggest clients is one the biggest retailers in the market. They are using this campaign module, and you can see different media and articles saying that they are making billions of dollars using their digital signage. and now all the stores and all their home office and some distribution centers are using our software to communicate and to control their digital signage.  So the campaign manager is basically enabling a retail media network? Jose Behar: That's right. The idea is creating a TV network where our clients can sell their advertising spaces, and they can have all the inventory and all the reports that they need in order to show their clients all the information.  There are a hell of a lot of companies out there that do what you do. You've been at it for a very long time, three decades. What is it about what you do that differentiates it from the scores of other companies who have a pretty similar offer. Everybody has their unique aspects to it, but what is it about yours? Jose Behar: We don't use other hardware or software APIs. For example, one of the players that we use is BrightSign, and we know all the insights of the player. We are able to be a standalone. We don't need their software to be useful.  Another thing is that we are the owners of the intellectual property, and we develop everything completely. So our clients are able to ask us for different kinds of customizations, all kinds of customizations we have done with all of our clients, and connect directly to their systems or allow different kinds of peripherals. For example, right now, we were selected by Sony Semiconductor to integrate their AI camera Aitrios into our software as almost a plug and play. We are now the only software that can manage that and use that camera in digital signage without any additional development.  So for BrightSign and for Sony as well, when you talk about not really relying on APIs and things like that, do you have your own specific operating system instead of working with BrightSign OS, or how does all that work?  Jose Behar: In the case of BrightSign, we don't have an operating system because they have their own, but we can control the player without using almost any of their APIs, and only using their application, that is, an operating system. We are almost ready in about four to six weeks to release a new version for Android. So we have a partnership with C Labs, the players that are based here in Dallas too, and in that case, we are more into the players. So we work in that sense more like an operating system, and we can control and do more things with that kind of open architecture instead of a closed architecture like BrightSign. Is that a client, ask or demand that they want as much extraneous stuff and other hooks stripped out of it so that it's clean and therefore less of a risk security and stability wise?  Jose Behar: Talking about stability and security, we have been proven to be the most robust and secure platform. That's why this client, that is one of the biggest retailers, but other clients that we have that are almost the same size don't have any issues regarding security or stability. They have even been looking for other platforms for redundancy, because in a critical income business like that, they can have another option in case something happens to Zynchro but Zynchro has been proving that it is more capable and it can show more data and more information to the clients than any other platform. Even showing and controlling the displays, the TV with serial commands, all that kind of stuff we can do, and of course, again, because of our capability of customization, we can add or remove any of the functionalities that our clients are asking for. Until the pandemic, we had a client, the biggest one in Entertainment Parks, and they asked us to have a special administrator. So nobody can mess with the imaging, nobody can mess with the pictures or with the animations, because for them it's their brand. So they used our server for all the information in the resorts, in convention centers, and even transportation. All the bus transportation, they had connected Zynchro to their main source for all the bus routes, and if the buses were coming in time or not, connecting the buses in real time.  One of our other clients, the Central Ohio Transport Authority, has connected our system to their own system where at the bus terminals and bus stations, they can show the different routes and if the bus is coming on time or not with GPS on the buses. So that's one of the biggest benefits. The other, I think the greatest benefit here is also our pricing, which is very competitive.  At this moment, looking at the market, now we are, if not the least expensive, one of the less expensive in the market because we want to have long-term relationships, not only one-shot deals.  The challenge, of course, with competing somewhat on price is how do you make money?  If you're not charging all that much per software license, part of it's obviously about scale, but how do you address that? Jose Behar: Two main things. One, as we are the owners, and we developed this 18 years ago. In the beginning, it was for the Windows platform. We are constantly creating new upgrades and updates in order to be more efficient and for the software to be more efficient as our operation to be most efficient and the second one is that the clients like the way we do support.  In the market, one of the most costly areas is support. So what we do is to reduce the support infrastructure and the support area by creating well-tested software. And being almost perfectionist of course, we are going to have a problem some time and we are going to have some  problems. But with our software, we try to have a quality assurance and a testing phase that may be longer than any other software. But with that, we can offer almost a support free platform: a platform that is very easy to use and also so robust that the client needs almost no support.  We are one of the only ones that don't have 24/7 support. We have Monday to Friday, 9-5 support with a ticket system and that’s it and even with worldwide clients, it has worked pretty well, so reducing that cost in support is one of the main things that we have achieved.  You've understandably danced around the names and are only able to describe some of your larger clients. I get that the bigger the clients, the harder it is for them to give permission to talk about them and the last thing you wanna do is get on their bad side about doing that sort of thing.  But can you give me some sort of sense of scale of the footprint of your installed base?  Jose Behar: Right now, we are managing around 50,000 players in our network.  50,000?  Jose Behar: Yeah, and we're still growing. We are at different gas stations. One of the clients that I can mention is in Canada, Lexus-Toyota dealers. All the Lexus-Toyota dealers in Canada are using Zynchro for the different areas like the waiting room or the service parts and that kind of stuff. One of the clients that I can mention in order for you to see the different kinds of verticals is The Omnia nightclub at the Caesar’s Palace in Las Vegas. So they are using our software for this nightclub. But also all the big screens that you can see from the Vegas strip, talking about Omnia, are managed by Zynchro. So you're all over the place. I mean nightclubs and theme parks and big mass merch retailers, and auto dealers. Do you have a vertical market that you focus on, or is it kinda more of a generalist offer?  Jose Behar: Basically, right now, we are focusing on retail and hospitality, because principally, the monetizing tool is a tool that helps them a lot for self-pay projects or even generating a lot of income. But as I always say to my new clients or prospects, if you are uploading an x-ray or you are uploading a JPEG with coffee, for us, it's only a picture, it's only a file, and the same with videos. So, the only thing that we need from the client is the specific requirements in order to show them how to use Zynchro, logistically speaking.  We have a lot of functionalities, like Smart Groups. With the Smart Groups functionality, you can program Zynchro and all the content based on logical variables. So with that,, you can upload only content with tags and automatically Zynchro is going to program the content depending on your programming. For example, with distribution centers, the administrator of the distribution center can upload images with the tag “distribution center one”, and automatically Zynchro is going to deploy all the images. In that sense, talking about administration, we have unlimited users, so those users can be organized by a matrix with different kinds of permissions. So you can even have your advertising agency only with the permission to upload content, or you can have the marketing director only to approve content, different kinds of directors only to see reports in real time, or a full administrator that can do everything on the platform.  In that sense, we have clients that use our content management services because they don't have the personnel to do it, so the advertising agencies and the headquarters send us all the content. Or we have other types of clients that have a specialist area where they manage all the content with their clients and sell the spaces. What you offer is on a SaaS basis, right?  Jose Behar: Yeah, we are SaaS based, but with an annual fee.  With your larger clients, some of these “whale accounts”, are they also doing SaaS, or do you have a variation of an on-premise for them?  Jose Behar: No. Because with that, we can be responsible for everything that is happening. We have experienced a lot of different issues in the past with having installed the server on premises where sometimes nobody takes the responsibility of any of the issues or it goes from the hardware to the server, software to the hardware, and with infinite meetings. We prefer to take all the responsibility, and when we have an issue, it's better and easier to detect where the issue is.  For your larger clients, I suspect that almost every week, there's some competing company trying to work their way into your deal. Basically, take you out. How do you kind of address that with your clients?  Jose Behar: Being the best, and always trying to do our best work solving their issues. One of the things that all our clients appreciate about us is that, as we are responsible for the whole network, we are able with our system to detect a lot of different issues, even with different kinds of hardwares, so our platform also can send automatic alerts via sms or emails, and we have developed different kinds of automated detecting and self-correcting functionalities.  So each day, with every upgrade, we have fewer and fewer issues and our team that is in charge of detecting the different kinds of problems or issues is very specialized, and we have a long time doing this, so we have detected almost all the problems, and 90% of the problems in our experience are hardware related. And even though we are not in charge of the hardware, we are still able to detect even if a cable is broken.  So in that sense, solving problems is the main thing that the clients like about us and being neutral as we don't sell hardware, we are not compromised to any brand. We are neutral and we can say anything and say everything that we need to say without compromising our commercial status. Does your software stack work with smart displays like the Samsung Tizen OS and LG Web OS?  Jose Behar: Last year, we launched the Tizen application. For the Tizen application, of course, because of the hardware we have different restrictions compared to a full player. But yes, we are now working with Tizen.  That idea was also to save money for our clients. That is our mantra. Our mantra is to create an income or to save money for our clients. With Tizen and with the service they support, everything is about saving money, because they make a playlist or maybe only show very easy content so they don't need to buy a full installation of players and splitters or whatever, only a connected TV, and that's it.  So with the support that we are offering, they are also saving a lot of money without sending surveys or people to every store or every area only to see if the system is working. We have been able to detect black screens and automatically report the black screens, even when in parallel with our software, we are trying to solve the issue with automated functionalities.  It's interesting because a lot of people generally in the industry and more broadly, just in general, would look at some of these very large clients to think, they're not gonna be all out concerned about hardware costs and month to month subscription costs and things like that because they're making bags of money and they're so big, but, they got so big because they worry about every nickel and dime, right? Jose Behar: Oh, of course. If you multiply only an SD card by thousands, you're gonna have to invest millions of dollars and with players or with even a cable, if you need HDMI cables, long cables with amplifiers or whatever, you're talking about millions of dollars, but it is also about buying the hardware, it also about the maintenance of the hardware. Once this hardware is installed, sometimes it's installed in an area that is difficult to access or is difficult for the IT department to be trained in a  timely manner. Our first concern is always to have the correct installation. We also help our clients with defining all the engineering layouts so they can have the best maintenance through the years. We had some clients, for example, that at this time, they're not even able to change a player even though it’s a very old area because of the architecture of the area, so they are finding ways to do what they need to do without opening the wall for that kind of stuff.  Sometimes these people, as you said, don't even think about the installation or what kind of resources they will need in the ongoing activities, like with only energy, we have been able to detect that going black in the stores when they close or at different times we are able to save them millions of dollars in only energy. And that's why we can also control the TVs and we can have all the information about the TV, because with the idea of the displays, we can know how many hours they have left or when they are gonna need to replace the display or the splitter or whatever. You mentioned working with Sony Semiconductor earlier. What is that about? I believe it’s a computer vision system called Aitrios?  Jose Behar: Aitrios is a camera that added the layer for AI, so with that camera, we can detect gaze and face detection, not recognition. Recognition at this moment is illegal, and you need a database for a lot of phases or whatever.  The idea here is to have a detection for two objectives, the first one is to have a report about how many people are in front of the display, their gender, age and also where they are looking because they can be in front of the display, but looking the other way, and they are one of the first hardwares that also can catch a lot of people at the same time, not only one person.  So one objective is to have those kinds of reports in order for decision makers to have more contentless content because sometimes they have to pay royalties for the content, but if they don't have a lot of people, and adding the analytics that we have with the clicks and all the information about the experience was used, they can make better decisions. In my point of view, the best objective of that is reacting in real time. So you can trigger content based on your audience in real time. So if you have a male around 50 years old in front of the TV, and looking directly at the TV, you can program it to automatically trigger maybe a Black & Decker advertisement. But if it's a female around 30 years old, looking directly at the TV from a distance of four to five feet, you are going to trigger a female orientation advertisement. So, now, segmentation is the name of the game. So you have people at the store who are there to buy already, but if you can also show them something that it's segmented for, then it's more probable that they are going to buy it or get a promotion for. So this is Sony Semiconductor as opposed to the Sony Pro Display Business unit. Do they work hand in hand on this, or is it a separate thing completely?  Jose Behar: Right now, it's a completely separate thing, Aitrios and Bravia, but also we are starting talks with Bravia to integrate Zynchro into Bravia like we did with Tizen, Samsung. Because I believe Sony has Android TV, I believe, right?  Jose Behar: Yes, Bravia is based on Android, the commercial specs and we are looking into that, doing some research. In the future, we may be able to have both in the same application. All right, so your company's in Dallas. Is everybody working out of a Dallas office, or are you dispersed?  Jose Behar: No, we are completely dispersed. It was like 12 years ago that we decided to start doing home office for all the programmers. They like it more because they can be with their families and also for some of them, it's like their hobby. They love what they do, right? So sometimes they work at night or sometimes when their family is watching a movie or whatever, they're still working, and as we have a lot of developers in Mexico, the idea was to help them avoid traffic, to avoid criminal issues. There are a lot of security issues in Mexico, so between traffic and all the criminal stuff, their efficiency went up more than 30%.  How many people are in the company now?  Jose Behar: We are a team of twenty seven. Wow. You've got some monster clients for a company that's in relative terms is quite small. Jose Behar: The thing here is that we have a lot of experience developing since the beginning of multimedia touch screens. So we have a lot of experience developing programming and how to do things more efficiently.  All right. It was great to finally have a chat and understand a bit more about your company. It's one of those ones I've heard about here and there, and now I know more, and as do our listeners. Thank you very much.  Jose Behar: Thank you so much for the opportunity and for your time. I appreciate it.

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  35:38
• Gregg Zinn, SmarterSign

  The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT Digital menu boards have long been marketed and positioned as a way to deal digitally with how what's available to order can change through a business day. I'd argue much of the critical thinking around how to do menu boards well hasn't progressed much beyond ensuring the item descriptions and prices are large enough for customers to read from the other side of an order counter. New York-based software and services firm SmarterSign has been in the digital signage industry for coming on 20 years, and has found something of a niche in working with QSR chains on optimized menu boards that are not only legible and visually pleasing, but boost sales performance for operators. Co-founder Gregg Zinn has an interest and passion for the science of advertising and marketing, and he's started writing a series called Digital Menu Board Mastery that gets into the design and psychological weeds of how to lay out and manage menu boards that influence customer ordering decisions and drive higher profits for operators. In this podcast, we get into some interesting things that most menu board sellers and users have probably never considered - stuff like psychological pricing anchors and the so-called golden zones for menu layouts. It's a really interesting chat ... Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT Greg, thank you for joining me. Just to get started, can you give me a rundown on SmarterSign, what it is, how long you've been around, that sort of thing?  Gregg Zinn: Sure. Thank you very much for having me. SmarterSign was founded in 2006, so we've been doing this for just short of 20 years and it was founded by me and my primary business partner, Peter. We got together and both came from technology consulting, building applications for larger organizations, helping them understand how to use technology to make their businesses operate better.  I had actually done some digital signage. My first digital signage was done at Mall of America in the mid 90s working with Mel Simon, I have always been very intrigued by it. I had this vision of a Blade Runner future, where every surface was a communication vehicle and I was just very fascinated with the concept of digital signage, and I also saw that it was gonna be a burgeoning industry that had a lot of runway for the industry to grow and when we looked at the industry, we really found that there were two kinds of providers in the industry, and you probably remember back then, there were providers who were very technology oriented like Cisco, who were very good at moving data around networks, but didn't really have a lot of tools for content control. And there were companies like Scala who had a great software platform, a really powerful software platform, but it didn't really allow business operators to take complete control, and we saw that as the sweet spot for digital signage is moving business operators closer to their message and being able to impact their communication, whether it was in a corporate communication environment, a retail environment, or really what became our biggest market, which is food service, restaurants, digital menu boards.  I think a lot of the reason why digital menu boards became such a big and important part of our business is because of this approach of moving that communication control closer to the business operator. We've spent close to 20 years really working on perfecting as much as we can the tools to bring that vision to life.  So would you describe the company as a CMS software company or more of a solutions firm?  Gregg Zinn: Yeah, that's a great question. So really we view ourselves as two parts of the same solution. One is, one is a software provider that provides great software for controlling digital signage networks, and that's end-to-end from content creation, scheduling, distribution, and playback, and then the other piece is really the services piece of it, and I think that is equally important to the software piece of it, because these business operators are using a new tool, even business operators who have been doing it for 15 years, it's still relatively new to them. So being able to provide that layer of service and support underneath them, and when I say service and support, I'm not just saying, here's how to use our software. I'm talking about how to use this tool for your business. Here are the business opportunities for you. Here are the things that you can do with these tools. I think it's really important, and, for me, as part of the business, it's been a big focus, and I try to influence the software development to accommodate as much of that as possible and make it as intuitive as possible. But a lot of it is just working with business operators, so the service piece of it is really important.  Where's the company based?  Gregg Zinn: Our headquarters is in New York and I am based in Chicago. I moved to Chicago, just short of eight years ago. My wife's family is from Chicago. I was living in Chelsea in Manhattan, and my young sons are getting to school age and New York City is very challenging for raising children. We were living in 700 square feet in Chelsea and the truth is, it was fantastic. I love New York. I'm a New Yorker through and through. But my wife's family is from the Chicagoland area, the suburbs of Chicago, and we decided to pick up and move here, and now instead of looking at concrete and windows, I'm looking at a lake.  Yeah, it's good to have that relief valve as well, the in-laws and extended family where you can say, “hey, we need to do this, can you guys take the kids?” Plus they see more of their family.  Gregg Zinn: It's incredible. We do Sunday dinners and I love having the family around and it's great for me, it's great for my boys and now they're getting on in their teen years and doing all that stuff and it's great to see them grow up in this environment. I got in touch because I noticed on LinkedIn you posted a piece about Menu Board Mastery and I clicked through and had to look at it and I thought, oh, this is interesting because as somebody's been around digital signage as long as you, maybe not quite a few, mid 90s, I only got in late 90s, but nonetheless, we've both been around it a long time. I know that menu boards can be done badly, but I tend to think they're done badly when they're eye charts and there's way too much stuff on there, or quite simply, they're just not working. But your Menu Board Mastery pieces take a look at the science of it and of layout and the thinking and everything else. So I thought that would make a great conversation to get into, first of all why you felt it useful to put this together and then get into some of the key tenets of it.  Gregg Zinn: Really the thing is, I've had so many conversations with business operators, at all levels, and that could be from single location operators to multinational operators and all of them seem to struggle with putting a strategic foundation underneath the concept of what they're gonna display, and even this many years into it, many of them just see digital as a more efficient way to get their print menu up on the screen, and even when they were doing their print menu, I don't really believe that they were tapping into some of the core ideas of using this as an incredible marketing tool.  When I look at digital menus, I think a digital menu should be your perfect salesperson. If you could have that person talking to that customer and guiding them through consuming from your restaurant in a way that is ideal for you, and ideal for them, having it be the perfect salesperson. I think that's really important, and a lot of businesses have struggled to do that. So I took a look at this, and I thought, what if I put a series together that takes very interesting, proven, scientific complex ideas and makes them highly practical? And this has really been a core philosophy for me since I was a teenager.  When I first read BF Skinner's Beyond Friedman Dignity and David Ogilvy's Confessions of an Advertising Man, I became fascinated with how people interact with information and how behavior is impacted by communications, and those various tools and many boards are no different. So I thought about giving people some very practical ideas. I want to make this industry better, like ever since we started SmarterSign, I don't want to just have a great business in the industry. I want this industry to be important. I want this industry to really impact businesses and be indispensable as part of the complete operation for every business. Obviously that helps my business. But it also energizes me. It engages me.  Another key piece of my philosophy has always been moving people from theory to practice as quickly and easily as possible. Nobody ever said theory makes perfect. Practice makes perfect and helps people move to practice practical ideas and I use the phrase, “Is this practical?” all the time. You can have all of these great ideas and all of these visions for what can be, and you can sit there and ruminate, but really, when it comes down to it, where the rubber meets the road is where value is created, and can you put this into practice was the vision behind this series. The first article that you put out was about visual attention. When you talk about visual attention, what do you mean? Apart from the obvious.  Gregg Zinn: Yeah, and it's funny because there are some very obvious things, but there also are some well-studied scientific understandings about how people's eyes move in the interpretation of information and I think in the article, we point out two very well-known, established patterns of how people interact with information.  There is the F-pattern of how your eyes scan information, and that is typically for menus or information that is very text rich, and your eyes go across the top and then they go down to the middle and then across a little bit more, and then they go down to the left hand side and understanding the way that people's eyes are gonna be moving across your information helps you prioritize where you put your information that's important to your business, and I want to talk about what information is important to your business because getting to businesses do not really know how to take advantage of this tool. I think this is a really important piece of it, and I am going to be writing an article about this, and it's been a big focus as well.  But let me continue on with the other way that people interpret information, and that is The Golden Triangle, and it starts in the middle, moves to the upper right, moves to the left, and these two visual patterns have been proven time and time again with eye trackers and studies to see how people interpret visual information in front of them. The Golden Triangle is very helpful for highly visual menus, and really the key spot in that menu is that upper right hand corner. If you can put your really high value items in that upper right hand corner, you are going to see a change in your outcomes, for the better. It's such an interesting thing, and this is part of getting back to why the series is here. I want to be able to provide tidbits of information like that to help businesses change their outcome, and obviously for the better.  Is this something you discovered or you've known because you've had that interest for a very long time in it? I'm curious if you started working with QSRs and restaurant chains and advocated doing this, and then did the reading and found out, oh, there's actually a science behind this.  Gregg Zinn: Yeah, it's really a mixture of both because I had studied these concepts, and they were very interesting to me, all the way back in the 90s. They were very interesting ideas to me. Even before that, managing behavior was always interesting to me. But as I started to work in the practical environment of working with businesses, I was able to apply those ideas and see how they impacted. So I was able to grow a clear understanding of how these ideas very specifically relate to these types of business problems. So it has been a full circle since I was interested in it, I was able to apply it, and now I'm able to move and help businesses perfect it.  So one of the things you get into is positioning, like what should go where and how you wanna have prime positions for your high margin items and signature items, that sort of thing. I've not thought about that at all. I've just thought that companies just laid things out the way they laid out their print menus and didn't really think too much about that stuff, or maybe they don't.  Gregg Zinn: Many of them don't think about it and actually very early on, working with businesses, 2006-2007, I had come up with this idea called The Prominence Pyramid. The idea behind The Prominence Pyramid was to help businesses identify. What are the most important menu items on your menu? And most businesses couldn't identify it. I was really surprised to walk into the c-suites of large organizations and ask them very simple questions about what are the most important items on their menu and they were not able to answer that.  But we would guide businesses through this process of putting items on a pyramid, say at the top of the pyramid. These are the most important items for you, and they're the most important for top line revenue. They're the most important for margin, they're the most important in terms of branding and customer experience, and those are the items that should have prominence within your visual space because they're the ones that are gonna help push your business forward. There are so many moving parts to this as we're moving forward, and as AI has become part of the mix of tools, it's a very exciting time for me because I feel like we can use these tools to help give insights very quickly to businesses using real data using, using these known scientific ideas to help them get these ideas in front of them, and then once you know that, once you know what should be presented in these prominent areas in the visual space, then you could do things like change the sizing, change the coloring, add boxes around them, animate those sections, put little tags, customer favorites.  Actually, we have a customer who just did this who just did this. He wanted to promote this one item, so we put a tag that said “Customer favorite” and sales immediately increased on this item. So we know that these tools can help change business outcomes. It's just a matter of helping businesses get there. And I think this series is gonna help people get there in bite-sized movements.  So when you talk about things like prime positions, that's in your F-pattern or Golden Triangle, there's certain positions that are gonna be optimal. That's where the eye goes naturally?  Gregg Zinn: Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy to think that these are actually things, but they've proven, studied, scientifically that this is the way eyes move to interpret information.  So some of the other variables, and you've already mentioned it, are things like white space and borders around stuff, contrast, the font size.  To me, being a knucklehead and not really spending a lot of time talking about QSRs, I just see ones where I can't read this, and my eyesight's assisted, but when I've had my glasses on, it's 2020, and I still struggle to read it.  Gregg Zinn: Yeah, it drives me crazy and I don't know if you have seen this, but I can send you a link to it. I had done a series called the Digital Menu Board Scorecard, and it was an evaluation of menu boards in the wild, not necessarily SmarterSign customers. But menu boards that we had seen, we'd take pictures of them, and we'd break down what are they were doing well, what are they doing poorly and we give them a score on a number of characteristics like branding, layout, organization, and actually, it's funny, just last week I was in the airport and I saw a menu from a pretty big QSR, and I just thought: Who made this menu? This is just terrible.  I won't mention their name because I don’t want to get in trouble.  When you did the scorecard, were you handing out as many “A”s?  Gregg Zinn: Yeah, there were some As, there were few, very few, but every once in a while we'd come across a menu board where the business had a really good balanced sense of brand presentation, strategic organization, overall design, effectiveness of the menu to get people to order. That's actually one of the key things when you look at menus. Outside of getting their attention, it is how quickly can you get somebody through the process of making a decision and this is particularly true for digital drive-through, has been a real focus and we've seen some really interesting things done in that realm. For example, having the menu change at 8:00 PM to be a more limited menu on the drive-through, so that it changes the operations from a kitchen point of view, but also gets people through the line quicker.  One of the questions I wanted to ask was, is the thinking and the layouts and everything else different between the screens over the counter, the screens in a self-service ordering kiosk, and then the screens in the drive-through? Gregg Zinn: Yeah, absolutely, and if you look at our customers who are doing interior menu boards and exterior menu boards, the layouts, the structures, the approach to the menus are different. It's just different. It's a different mind frame. It's almost a different form factor in many cases because a lot of times the drive through's gonna be portrait, and many times the interior board's gonna be landscape.  But the whole business mission is really different, and taking advantage of what each of those environments do better. We don't do any touchscreen ordering. I have a love-hate relationship with the concept of it. I'm old school. So when I go into a sandwich shop, I want to talk to the person who is going to be able to take down my details of what I want, and I want to be able to say them and have them articulate that to the kitchen. Personally, I find it very difficult to do the touchscreen ordering and get that right and have the same level of customer experience.  AI is gonna change that because AI is going to somehow offer voice to AI ordering, which will take some of that UI cloudiness out of the mix. You mentioned AI. I'm curious about computer vision and the idea that, I've heard this said, I don't know what it is really being done in-store. I've heard about it in drive-throughs, but dynamically adjusting menus based on the profile of the people who are approaching the counter. Gregg Zinn: Yeah, there's a few things that we've been working with in terms of studying, how this can be done in an effective way. It's a highly strategic concept and, as I mentioned earlier, businesses are really just struggling to translate their static menu to a digital menu in a very strategic way, but we're pushing this forward, and there are other technologies.  There's license plate reader technology for drive-throughs where the same car is coming through, and you could tie it to their past consumption and we're gonna get there, and I think with AI, we're gonna get there much quicker and I'm super happy about that. Because I have been sitting in the running blocks waiting for the gun to go off and I'm excited about what AI means to accelerate some of this progress.  When you started, almost 20 years ago now, APIs were known but they weren't widely available and I suspect it was very difficult to talk to a restaurant about actually jacking into their restaurant management systems in any way, but we're now in a very different world, and that's all possible.  Is it being done? And how do you best leverage that other than the very simple stuff like price changes in the store system, you want to automatically change on the screen? Gregg Zinn: Right now the two primary mechanisms that are interacting, that operating data with the marketing data on menu boards, are price changes. So having the POS system be the source of that price, that's your operating data, and that operating data points should be filtered through to your menu boards. You shouldn't have to manage it in two pieces.  The second piece is inventory. We work with a lot of customers who run out of individual products, and that creates frustration for the customer, and it creates frustration for the person taking the order. So having the ability to show that something's currently sold out, is something that we're seeing being used. Again, this comes down to: Can so much more be done? Yeah, so much more can be done.  But getting over that, what should be done, as opposed to what can be done. It's also part of my core philosophy is, a lot of things can be done, but only some things should be done. So we've stayed away from novelty. We've stayed away from a lot of the things that people are saying, whoa, what about this? What about that? We try to keep it as practical as possible. But we're gonna see a big shift. I don't know if you know the company Palantir. I love Palantir as a company. I love what their vision for using AI is. People ask me questions about it all the time because I'm in technology. People ask me about AI people who are late, not in the technology industry, and late people, and I always point to Palantir as somebody who is an applied AI company. They're using the data to determine what should be done as opposed to what could be done and I think they're doing a really great job of it. They're really leaders in that space. Now, they're not menu boards, but I do follow what they're doing because I think that they're very innovative in terms of how they're looking at the connection between data operations, real world and practical application. In my years doing consulting, I've done quite a bit with some big companies, but the only QSR I worked with was a coffee chain and when I went in to start working with them, they talked about a bunch of things and I asked them about menu boards and takeovers, which I had seen in some of their stores where all of the menus went away and they had a tiled piece of creative, pedaling a particular promoted product and they said that they did some interview intercepts with customers and pretty uniformly the customer said, stop screwing around, just show me the damn menu, and I've since been in a number of restaurants where I had to wait for the menu items that came up because they were promoting something or other on the screen for 5-10 seconds and it irritated the living hell out of me. Is it something you advocate? Just get to the point; don't try to be fancy here. Forget the video, just show me the items and pricing.  Gregg Zinn: Yeah, intuitively for me, that customer response is obvious. They're trying to interact with a piece of data to place an order, and then all of a sudden it's gone and they're waiting. They have no idea how long it's gonna be before it comes back, and then they've gotta go find their spot on the menu again. So intuitively for me, we have always guided people against it. We've had customers asked to do it. Of course, our platform can do it. But it is not a good idea. Now, that being said, with digital menu boards and you've seen them in QSRs, there's a lot of visual space, so you can use a portion of that visual space to do those kinds of marketing techniques. One of the really interesting things that we had seen, so we did an observational study of a food court, working with a customer who had a restaurant, a pizza restaurant, and a food court. We did an observational study, and we saw that nobody looked up at the menu when they came over to the counter to order. They didn't care about the pricing, they didn't care about anything. They never looked up. But the menu boards were not being used properly to get people over to their restaurant as a choice. So what we recommended was: these really aren't digital menu boards in so much as they're digital billboards, and you need to use these as a “come eat pizza” sign, as opposed to thinking of it as a digital menu board. So we used some of the visual space as a “come eat pizza”, and we were able to draw some of that audience thinking maybe they'd go get Chinese food or Chipotle or another option over to them. So that's another way where you can impact outcomes by using the visual space as opposed to just menu boards.  What do you do with restaurants? I think about one up here, Tim Horton's here in Canada that started out doing coffee and donuts and pastries and now does endless kinds of food items, and they've got a menu list that's far longer than it was when the chain first started.  What do you do when you have customers who have like 40 SKUs and you've only got so much real estate on a screen?  Gregg Zinn: It's a big challenge, and it's a funny thing because, when I look at operations like that, I've never run a restaurant, but when I think of the ideal process to get customers through and order your food, I think of a business like In and Out Burger. They've got a very specific menu. People come there for those items. They love those items.  We have a lot of customers who have these extensive menus. I don't love it from an operations point of view, but from a presentation of the menu point of view, it's a matter of just being very organized in how you present that information so that you are able to get that broad menu into somebody's eyes, get them to where they want to order. If they want something that's savory as opposed to something sweet, get their eyes to that.  A good example of that is Dairy Queen has a pretty extensive menu, and they've got food and ice creams and just being able to segment that out. So on their drive-throughs, for example, we do a number of franchisees for Dairy Queen. On their drive-throughs, they've got one complete panel, that's just their sweet treats. They've got a middle panel that is promotion, key promotional items, LTOs and things like that, and then they have a right screen that is their savory items, their burgers and sandwiches and hot dogs and things.  The post that you have up right now about this Mastery series has to do with price anchors. That's not a term I know much about. What do you mean by that?  Gregg Zinn: It's another behavioral technique where you can establish a baseline in a customer's mind by putting an item that you don't really expect anybody to consume, but what it does is it creates a mental baseline of price expectation, so that you can have them pay a premium price for that second level item, without feeling like this is too expensive. So it really is a decoy. It’s like look over here, this item is $30, but here's a really good value item at $22. It's so interesting to me because particularly in the past five years, pricing's gotten outta control, and, for so many reasons. Supply chain issues, obviously going back to 2020 with Covid but pricing has gotten crazy, and my favorite burger place in New York City, actually where I got engaged, when I got engaged, the burger was, yeah, I'm a huge burger guy, but it was my second date with my wife. We went there, and we're both burger people, and that's where I proposed ultimately.  You got engaged on our second date?  Gregg Zinn: Oh, no, we went on our second date to this burger place. Seven years later, we got engaged, but in that same spot, but the burger was like $6 at that point, and now it's like 18.  Oh, for God's sake.  Gregg Zinn: Yeah, and even the QSRs I go into sometimes, and I just think, who could afford $60 for a family of four?  It just doesn't seem like an affordable approach and I will tell you that from a pricing strategy point of view, all of the QSRs are recognizing this, and they're trying to adapt. We're already out of time, but I wanted to ask one more question, just around when you're going into a new customer and you start talking about what we've just discussed, kind of the science and the thinking behind it, are minds a little bit blown because they're wanting to do digital menu boards because it's a pain in the ass to change the print ones, and they haven't thought much beyond that? Gregg Zinn: We take it slow. It's been over 20 years and we’ve learned you can't just go in gangbusters and put all of these ideas in their heads about what's possible because it'll just confuse the situation. So we go slow with our customers. We meet them where they are. Fix the first obvious problem, and then you can go from there. Gregg Zinn: Yeah, and I've said it a number of times in this call if it's not practical, it can't be done.  All right. This was great. If people wanna find out more about SmarterSign and read these articles, they can find 'em on smartersign.com.  Gregg Zinn: They can, yeah. All the articles are there. In the resource section, right? Gregg Zinn: Yeah, and we've got a bunch of videos on our YouTube channel, of course, posting on other social channels like LinkedIn. But yeah, the primary source would be on smartersign.com.  Perfect. All right. Thank you, sir.  Gregg Zinn: Yeah, thank you so much. It was really nice talking to you and re-meeting you again.

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  37:00
• Jenn Heinold, InfoComm

  The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT The next plus-sized pro AV trade show on the annual calendar is InfoComm, coming up in mid-June in, yuck, Orlando, Florida. I'm always curious about what will be new and different with the show, and that's particularly the case in 2025, because there's a new person running things. Jenn Heinold joined show owner/operator AVIXA late last year as the Senior VP Expositions, Americas, so for the last several weeks she's been in drinking-from-the-firehose mode as she learns more and more about the industry, ecosystem and how people think about and use InfoComm. Heinold is a lifer in the trade show business, and while she has run tech-centric trade shows, pro AV is new to her. We had a really good conversation that gets into her impressions and thoughts about the industry, her perspective on ISE, the AVIXA co-owned sister show, and plans for what will be her first InfoComm in June - including what will be different and new. We also get into what, if anything, will be affected by all the trade and geopolitical turmoil that's bubbled up since the US presidency had its four year shuffle. Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT Jenn, thank you very much for coming on. You've been on the job for how long now?  Jenn Heinold: I've been with AVIXA for just over three months. I joined in December as the Senior Vice President of Expositions for the Americas, and I'm over InfoComm in the U.S., which will be June 11th through the 13th in Orlando, Florida and then I'm also responsible for our new InfoComm America Latina launch event, which will be in October in Mexico City.  Did you know anything about the Pro AV sector before you got involved?  Jenn Heinold: No, honestly. I ran the largest satellite technology show in the U.S. for 15 years. So I've worked in technology, but Pro AV is different and I find myself now everywhere I go looking for display screens and how audio sounds. It's so fascinating how quickly you become immersed within the industry and you notice that it's everywhere and it makes our experiences better.  You'll be a display nerd in no time.  Jenn Heinold: I'm working on it. So have you always been in the trade show business?  Jenn Heinold: I have, yes, I dedicated my career to trade shows. I am super passionate about what happens in a face-to-face environment. I love the serendipity of it. I love that what I do helps businesses grow. The community aspect is amazing, right? Bringing people together with a common goal or challenge. The education that we can provide at trade shows. You can do a month's worth of meetings in three days. You can do a trip around the world in three days in some cases, right?  So I just love the format and really believe in what it can do for businesses and I'm excited to produce InfoComm. Because you had some background working with technology trade shows, has there been much of a learning curve? Setting apart the obvious that there are different companies and all that, but I guess their needs aren't all that dissimilar, are they?  Jenn Heinold: No, I think the commonality in working on technology shows is that you have the same structure where there are channel partners that are working to sell and integrate products, but then you also have all of the end users who use a specific technology. So I think it's important for us to be a forum for both Pro AV as well as our end-user audiences, and make sure that they each are fulfilled and feel welcome at the show and find value in the show.  You went to Integrated Systems Europe a few weeks ago, I saw you there. That was your first big Pro AV trade show, I assume, and I'm curious about your impressions.  Jenn Heinold: Oh, gosh, I was blown away by ISE. How could you not be? But for me, I was just so impressed by what the exhibitors did on the show floor. They really pulled out all the stops for ISE and the energy is amazing. It was so valuable for me to see the technology all together in real life, and then also to be able to meet with exhibitors here directly to know what are your strategic priorities for 2025 and beyond. Who should I be focusing on making sure that I have at the show, so it's the best for our exhibitors and our attendees alike?  I'm sure you were walking around with people like your boss Dave Labuskes both at ISE and InfoComm. Did you get some sense that ISE is its own thing? InfoComm runs differently. Yes, there are the same vendors and everything else, but apart from the obvious of Barcelona versus Orlando or Las Vegas, it does do things differently in some respects, at least. Jenn Heinold: Yeah, absolutely. I unfortunately don't yet have the comparison for InfoComm. I know what our plans are and what we're focusing on. ISE clearly has an amazing global footprint and InfoComm, while it is international, does skew a little bit more to North America just based on the location.  I think we at InfoComm have a much more training program and educational offering, which I really think is valuable. We need to not only nurture our current workforce and make sure that they have all the tools they need to succeed, but focus on the next generation as well, and I'm really proud that InfoComm does that. One of the things about ISE, as you said, there's not as much of a focus on training, there are certainly conferences and things like that, but it's more aimed at end users.  Do you find that you're getting exhibitors and other people saying, hey, it would be great if we had more end users if there was more kind of focus on that part of it, as opposed to, I sometimes refer to InfoComm is something of a gearhead show, and I don't mean that negatively, but it attracts the people who are going to go look at things like cable connectors and mounting infrastructure and so on and stuff that maybe somebody who's an experiential designer for a creative tech shop maybe doesn't care that much about. Jenn Heinold: Yeah. I will say that for 2025, we definitely are emphasizing the end-user audience. They are a key segment for us. Actually, one of the first things I did within my first week, Dave, was look at our end-user segments and compare what groups naturally grew when we were in Orlando versus Las Vegas, right? Just who organically was coming to the show and what I saw was a big increase in education when we're in Orlando, house of worship, retail, restaurants, and hospitality. None of this probably surprises you, but as we built out our marketing campaign, we've decided to really double down our investment on those segments that are organically growing in Orlando. I grew up in trade shows and marketing, so this has really been a passion project for me. Making sure that we have the right audience in InfoComm 2025 is my number one priority and I had to prioritize when I started at AVIXA so I had six months to really execute the show. So if there is one thing that I'm focused on day in and day out, it's the audience at InfoComm this year. When you say audience, are you hearing from exhibitors that they want to see more I end users or they want to see more partners because I think of an InfoComm as being a hyper-efficient way for a manufacturer to have a touch with a whole bunch of existing and potential resellers, and maybe not as worried about having like General Motors or some big retailer walking around.  Jenn Heinold: I hear both, Dave, and I think distributors and integrators are a super important part of the ecosystem, just as the end users are. We are putting more end users on Stage on the show floor this year, as well as within our conference program and I think, having the end users talk about how they are using AV technology only drives more end users to come to the show. That's what they want to hear, right? Uses cases of how they had successful installations, and how they have better employee engagement because of their conferencing and collaboration tools. We've got some retailers actually who will present how they're deploying AV technology in their stores, and what it's doing to improve their business. So we are making a real focus on that piece along with, of course, all the traditional content and certification we offer for the gearheads, as you said. I assume that's a bit of a tactic as well in, that if you invite, the Head of Digital for a big bank or big retail or whatever it may be to the show to do a speaking gig, there's a decent chance he or she is gonna bring some other people with them and then you've got people with big bank on the name tag walking around the show and you're able to talk about, look at the kinds of companies we're attracting. Jenn Heinold: That's absolutely a tactic. The other tactic is when we market to these end-user segments, and they go to our website, perhaps cold, having not really known much about InfoComm, and they see like-minded people on the website speaking, they realize it's an event for them too.  When you got involved, was there a discussion about how are things working right now? The old line about, if it ain't broke, don't fix it? Or were there things that you were told that are where we would like to grow, here's like where we would like to change things, that sort of thing?  Jenn Heinold: Yeah, I mentioned some of the deep dive I took into the show data when I first started. I also read the last five or so years' Exhibitor and Attendee Surveys. In reading those, one thing that bubbled up was just the onsite experience overall, and it is hard when you compare a U.S.-based show to an ISE at the Fira Barcelona is lovely and the food options are really healthy and great, and, unfortunately, we're a little bit behind in the United States on those things, but we are making  It's mind-blowing.  Jenn Heinold: It is a little embarrassing sometimes, but, I will tell you, I have already met with the team in Orlando. I actually was there about three weeks ago and talked about how we want to upgrade the food and beverage experience, have healthier options, and have more seating. So you will see an upgrade in the onsite experience as well.  That's something that we've done mindfully. When you have a better experience, you want to spend more time on the show floor, right? So, there's definitely another strategic priority for us.  Might as well talk about it now, I, people like me would be very happy if we never went to Orlando or Las Vegas again, and in the past, long before your time, InfoComm did move around a little bit. I remember the first one I went to was in Anaheim, and then it got in this rota of, back and forth between Orlando and Las Vegas.  Is that a finite thing or is that just how things are going to be?  Jenn Heinold: I don't think it's finite. The reality is InfoComm can fit in about five convention centers in the United States based on its size and Orlando and Vegas are two of them. Chicago could be an option, Atlanta, and New Orleans might work, but there are just not that many venues that can hold a show of our size, and also where the cities have the infrastructure to host us, so we are a little hamstrung that way.  I'm not opposed to looking at other cities. I think when we look at different cities, of course, we look at the cost structure. We look at the audience that is within a couple of hundred-mile radius and how accessible it is for air travel and everything else. I'm not opposed to it. We do have quite a few years booked already for Orlando and Las Vegas, but it's definitely something that I'm looking into.  If you come to the show, you'll see a lot of questions about our future cities and where we might be in the post-show survey, because it's something that I'd like to look into in the future. You've only been with AVIXA for three to four months, so you don't have a reference point for last year, but I'm going to ask anyway, what's going to be different this year with the show?  Jenn Heinold: Yeah, I mentioned our focus on the audience. That is a big priority for us. We always do local tours where you're able to see Avian Action. But this year I'm really proud that we're in Orlando. We've got a few new tours added to the schedule. One is, the Cirque de Soleil show behind the scenes in Disney Springs. We are going back to the University of Central Florida. We're also doing a large mega-church in Orlando for a house of worship tour. So we've added some fresh content there.  We also have a brand new panel discussion that we're launching this year called 2030 Vision. It will be moderated by Dave Labuskes, and we've got three visionaries from our industry, plus an end user up on stage to talk about what Pro AV look like in 2030, and what are the factors shaping our market. Our visionaries will be from Shure, Crestron, and Diversified. I'm really excited about having some different content models at InfoComm.  I talked earlier about the upgraded experiences. Again, we're really being mindful about making the event more comfortable and enjoyable to be a part of. I think in the last couple of years, AVIXA has really put a push on AVIXA Exchange and AVIXA TV. So I get a sense there's a lot more effort to educate the ecosystem and also use very modern ways to do it. It's not just the written word and case studies and so on. You're doing a lot of proper broadcast studio on-site at ISE and I assume probably something similar at Orlando.  Jenn Heinold: Yeah, absolutely. We'll have our AVIXA TV studios. The coolest thing about that, beyond being able to watch some of the interviews as they are recorded live, is that you get to see a fully functional broadcast studio on the show floor, right? You get to see how technology converges. It's not about just one box. It's about the whole solution and being able to present the whole solution is really special for us.  We've also got three stages. You mentioned AVIXA TV, that's more of a campfire format, right? So huddle around, and talk about different challenges that we're facing. We have our technology innovation stage which is really about highlighting new products that are coming to market and then we have our innovation Spotlight Stage and with the Spotlight Stage, we will have some exhibitors presenting thought leadership, but we also have some content partners there like Digital Signage Federation Plaza. We'll talk about lighting and staging. IABM will focus on the broadcast market opportunity and specifically the intersection of broadcast AV and IT. And FutureWorks who will talk about content creation.  Are you getting into some areas that - I saw at ISE that I didn't have enough time to really get over there and look at any, but it's enough just to get through those four days - but things like drones?  Jenn Heinold: We don't have a dedicated section of the show floor for drones. But certainly, there is some content about the use of drones projection mapping, and other applications.  What about the digital signage side? Through the years, AVIXA at InfoComm has tried to do “digital signage” pavilions, zones, and all kinds of things, and then in the last two to four years, I'm not sure of the number, you've worked with the Digital Signage Federation on a conference day called D Sign. Is that being replicated this year?  Jenn Heinold: Yeah, that'll return and we also have some content with Invidis who will cover a lot of digital signage as well so it's still a huge focus for us as part of the show. One of the attempts has always been to try to create an area thematically around it, but I've always told people that's super difficult because there are exhibitors who've been at that show for 10-20 years, and they have their spot. So it's hard to just say, okay, all of you digital science companies, you go over here, the audio people maybe do. Jenn Heinold: Yes. We don't have a dedicated pavilion for digital signage, but it gets back to our conversation earlier, Dave, I think it's a little bit less about one very specific piece of technology and more about the larger application and I think that's where our industry is going, and that's why really we can't box in those digital signage providers, right? Because they're doing so much more than just just a digital signage display.  Yeah, and that applies to just about any discipline these days that everything is cross-pollinating.  Jenn Heinold: Yes. So I think you'll see certainly some applications come to life at InfoComm 2025 and it'll be an even bigger part of our event design for 2026 where we are already having those conversations around what Infocomm 2026 looks like, which is really exciting. There was some noise at ISE around some of the major exhibitors, like notably Samsung, suggesting that they're not going to be at the show, that they're pulling their big stand, and this and that, and those were swatted down at the time, but I'm curious where that's at.  Jenn Heinold: Yeah, I personally speak to Samsung about every other week and they will be participating at InfoComm 2025. Will it be in the large booth presence that they have had in the past? Quite frankly, no, but, they will be there. They will have products on display. We welcome them and we're working with them to find the right marketing solution for what their needs are today and into the future as well. I find that weird because they had a massive presence at ISE and you would think they want to be there and if they're just doing whisper rooms, that sort of thing, it seems an odd decision. Is there something behind that? I read stuff about Korean politics or whatever, Korean government stuff that may be in the way of it. Jenn Heinold: I think that's a better question for them to answer, certainly, but they will do more than just a whisper room. They will have a presence at the show and we're working with them very closely on that. And they've been great partners. We want to continue to partner with them in a way that's mutually beneficial to both. Of course. Are you seeing some new exhibitors? Again, I respect that this is all new to you, but, some significant exhibitors coming into the InfoComm that maybe didn't do in the past.  Jenn Heinold: Yeah, I'm seeing, some more kiosk manufacturers. We're hearing more and more about that. Retail seems to be a really big end-user segment. That's a priority. We Just signed up AWS and they're bringing their equivalent of the Fire Stick for digital signage to the show. So those applications are fun to see and new for us.  We are always looking at a little bit of AI technology, we're always looking to make sure that we're introducing new and innovative technology to the show floor and one of the most fulfilling things for me is when you see those new tech come in and they might come in a 10 x 10 in the far corner of the hall and then they work their way there, work their way up, and have a bigger and bigger presence. Does your team do much coaching for some of the overseas exhibitors?  I'm particularly thinking about Chinese LED manufacturers who show up at these shows and it's always been a source of frustration and bewilderment for me that they'll spend a lot of money to bring all their tech over and bring a bunch of people over, and then when I wander into their booths and start asking questions, they don’t tend to have many, if any people who can speak much in the way of English. So do your people coach them by saying, “Guys, if you're gonna do this, here's our advice!”  Jenn Heinold: We do.  It doesn't necessarily work?  Jenn Heinold: We do and we also try to help our exhibitors with their marketing campaigns and how to promote their presence at the show, and how to save money. A lot of the services are deadline-driven and talk through all of those things.  Yeah, we do that. We partner with sales agents as well that are in the country and we encourage them to work with their exhibitors as well as to coach them on exhibiting. I don't know if that is not necessarily working, but I do think it's a longer process because there are so many elements that tie into that. Yeah, and it's not easy to if you're in Shenzhen or Beijing or whatever, you just logically don't have a whole bunch of English-speaking people, but, I guess it's not that easy either to hire interpreters to come over and get questions thrown at them about chip on board and pixel pitch and things like that the interpreter is not going to understand either.  Jenn Heinold: That can be a challenge. We hire some interpreters for our own staff to help interact. And, yeah, it definitely can be a challenge. I do think we are so close. You travel internationally. I travel internationally and with Google Translate and so many new AI tools, I feel like we are so close to really having some breakthrough moments with that though. It's so much easier now.  Like the Facebook glasses, and there's some other ones out there where they can do real-time translation and it'll just show up on the lens, which would be amazing for just about anything I do once I leave this country or leave this continent. Jenn Heinold: Yeah, I see it too. I'm hopeful that'll really transform our shows.  I have to ask about the current political and economic climate with tariffs and everything else. How are AVIXA and InfoComm navigating their way through some of that?  Jenn Heinold: Yeah, I think it certainly comes up quite often. I mentioned that was doing a trip in South America, Mexico last week, and I think it's a concern for our exhibitors, and what we can do is just help support their efforts. I feel really confident that our exhibitors know how to run their business and know how to do it well, and they will pivot and make adjustments I have studied the AV industry over the last few months, having joined AVIXA and having seen how our industry navigated COVID and having worked for an organization that had multiple trade shows prior where I saw a lot of industries not navigate COVID as well as the AV industry, I'm super impressed with how agile and smart our exhibitors are.  I think this is just another challenge that we face. I have every confidence that we'll be able to navigate this too.  Do you have any sense of companies deciding, given everything that's going on, really don't want to travel to the U.S. right now?  I'm Canadian, so I suspect there's a whole bunch of people north of the U.S. border who are having second thoughts about, okay, do I really want to go to Florida right now or in June with all this stuff about Canada being the 51st state and so on. Jenn Heinold: Yeah, so right now, we haven't had a lot of pushback on traveling to the United States. We have been able to maintain the exhibitors on our show floor, but it's certainly something that I'm watching very closely.  As a show organizer, I do think it's our job to make sure that everyone feels welcome and that's what I'm focusing on.  Yeah, I think most Canadians like me, I’ve got a bazillion friends in the U.S. and I would miss them and everything else and I don't think they're the ones who are stirring the pot here. So it's just unfortunate.  Jenn Heinold: Yes, absolutely.  We'll just leave it at that, right?  Jenn Heinold: Yeah.  So tell me about Mexico City. I'm curious how you guys, not really rationalize that, but you have to counterbalance that. Okay. If you do a show in Mexico City for LATAM, does that siphon away some of what is in InfoComm US?  Jenn Heinold: I wasn't part of the initial launch conversations, but I will tell you having managed regional portfolios of shows, in my past life and now being part of a regional portfolio show, I really think that all ships rise with the tide, Dave, and having an event in the country and more specifically, the In the native language and being able to serve that community who may not be able to travel will only lift up and put calm in the U.S. as well. So I'm really excited about it.  The pride that the local community feels to have InfoComm in their backyard is really palpable and energizing. I'm proud that we're able to do the regional event, and I do think that it'll feed even more of the audience to InfoComm in the U.S. because in many ways it's a great introduction to the brand and we can say, now you experience this and please come to the U.S.  show as well.  Finally, I'm curious how things are tracking. I know that with ISE, I heard probably eight weeks out or something like that, it was going to be very busy, probably break records, and so on. I'm curious about what you're hearing or tracking for Orlando and also for Mexico City although I know Mexico is well out.  Jenn Heinold: Yeah, so for Orlando, our show floor is about 95 percent sold. We're targeting around 410,000 net square feet of exhibit space and for registrations, we're targeting 40,000 which is back to pre-pandemic numbers. Right now we're pacing really well. I'm watching it very closely, of course, and I'd love to check-in with you a little closer to the event and be able to share since we still have a few months to go. But all the indicators are really good for InfoComm in the U.S. We actually just added some hotel room nights because we were getting full with the hotels we're seeing our website traffic, pretty significantly year over year. We have to look at the full picture, but there are some really positive early indicators for InfoComm.  It's probably a bit too early to know much about Mexico City, right? Jenn Heinold: Mexico City's registration will open up in June, actually at InfoComm in the U.S. We've sold about 80% of the show floor. It's a much smaller show floor than InfoComm in the U.S., but I'm really happy with the early interest from exhibitors and support from the local community. We're hoping for about 5,000 attendees in Mexico City. All right. Thank you very much for giving me an update.  Jenn Heinold: Thank you. I really enjoyed our conversation.

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  36:18
• Ted Romanowitz and Morris Garrard, Futuresource Consulting

  The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT The UK-based research and advisory firm Futuresource Consulting sends a big team every year to the ISE trade show in Barcelona, and then a few weeks later releases a big report that serves as a technical recap for the pro AV community - both for people who could not attend, and for people like me who did, but didn't have anywhere near enough time to see everything. The 2025 report is out now and the good news is that it is a free download - a departure for a company that produces detailed reports that are typically paywalled and tend to cost at least four figures. In this podcast, I chat with Ted Romanowitz, a principal consultant focused mainly on LED, and Morris (or Mozz) Garrard, who heads the pro displays file and looks more at LCD and OLED. We get into a bunch of things in a too-short 30 minute interview. You'll hear about mass-transferred Chip On Board tech. Where Chip On Glass, also known as MicroLED, is at. And we also get into LCD, OLED, e-paper and projection. Have a listen. Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT Ted and Morris, thank you for joining me. You guys are from Futuresource Consulting.  Every big trade show, like an ISE or an Infocomm and some other ones as well, but those are the ones I'm most familiar with, Futuresource sends a whole bunch of people to these shows. I'm curious how many people at Futuresource are on the pro display file, and why do you go to trade shows like ISE?  Morris Garrard: Dave, I'm glad to jump in. Thank you again for your time today, and looking forward to tossing with you. Overall, we took nearly 20 analysts and business development people to ISE which shows Futuresource’s commitment to the trade show and our clients, specifically the Pro AV, we took four analysts, and I'm on the consulting and advisory side, so we had a really good representation across all the technologies: projection, flat panel, interactive, and LED.  I assume the reason that you go is it's a very efficient way to see a whole bunch of new stuff and touch base with a whole bunch of companies under one roof in a matter of days. Morris Garrard: Oh, absolutely. For me, it's just always, you walk in and you hit that Hall 3 where a lot of the display companies are, and it's just. Like that first impression you go, oh my gosh, here we are. How am I gonna do all this?  It's always nice. I always start at the Lang booth because they always do a nice job of having that big wow something right there at the major intersection. Yeah, they've done well with that. One thing about Futuresource is that the great majority of the material you put out is understandably paywalled. That's your business, you're producing subject matter expertise reports and selling them. So I'm always a bit curious about a complete 180 with these post-show reports. They're very detailed, there are many pages, and it's almost boy, that's more than you needed to do. Morris Garrard: Yes, I think it's, this year was something between 40 and 50 pages to cover the many, different areas of our practices, but, yeah, we think it adds value to our clients to see the latest and greatest, what's happening and not just a reporting of this product announcement or that product announcement, but it provides the context of what's really happening the undercurrents and the, big stories, the technology transitions, if you will, that are happening that are driving shifts in the industry. That kind of helps us open doors with clients to have deeper Engagements with them based on our unique insights.  Ted Romanowitz: I think just to add to that as well is we don't produce these show reports solely for the benefit of our clients. We also work with an extensive research network that benefits from these show reports, as well as other industry bodies that we work with, like trade associations, for example, and our channel partners as well.  It's a way, obviously, that you're getting driving awareness of the sort of work that you guys do and what is possible behind the paywall.  Ted Romanowitz: Exactly that. Yeah. It's a brilliant opportunity to raise our profile and also to raise the profile of the analysts working within these product sectors as well. So we're already four minutes in, and I've got about half an hour to chat with you guys. So we should dive straight into some of what you saw and came away with, and I would say that the biggest thing is probably LED in the context of pro display, anyway. So let's skip past audio and some of those other areas. You talked a lot in the report about mass transfer chips on board. Can you, first of all, describe what that is? Because we're in an industry that's overwhelmed by acronyms and why they're important, and what's the distinction? Why are you saying mass transferred when you're processing COB with mass transferred? Ted Romanowitz: Yes, and not only are there a lot of acronyms, Dave, but the problem is that terms are being misused, and I've heard you talk about that a little bit. It's a really strategic inflection point that's happening right now, literally right in front of our very eyes at ISE, where you're shifting from packaged LED technologies that have driven the industry for 20 years where the LED: red, blue, green are packaged and then picked and placed onto a PCB. That's shifting to package list technologies where the individual chiplets are red, blue, and green and are being mass transferred. So instead of one pixel at a time, they're doing thousands, and when you think about it in context, a 4k display is over 8.2 million pixels. So if you can transfer thousands at a once instead of one by one, you save a lot of time, and so this package list technology is like a chip on board where the backplane is a PCB and it's a passive driver and then chip on glass or what we call micro LED. Truly micro LED, that is, sub-100 micrometers mass transferred onto a TFT black backplane with an active driver. So at ISE, you saw this crazy tidal wave, I'm going to go with that term, this crazy tidal wave of companies that are announcing COB, and the biggest thing is that they're coming to the fruition of manufacturing processes so that they can mass transfer instead of pick and place. So the cost is going to be a lot less to make them, first of all, because you don't have to package first, then pick and place, and then secondly, because you can mass transfer.  So we expect, and this is going to, within maybe the next 12 months following, this could drive up to a 50 percent decrease in the ASPs, average sales price of 1.5 millimeters and below. It's just truly amazing. We've been hearing about this for several years, Futuresource has been writing about it, and now it's happening right before our eyes.  With COB, there are other inherent advantages as well, right? The first one would be that as they're manufactured, the finished modules have some sort of protective coating on them. That's just fundamental to how they do them, right? Versus SMD, it's the older school packaged LED displays where they're unprotected unless they've got this glue on board coating, and they're more prone to damage.  Ted Romanowitz: Yes, exactly, and those processes have been perfected over the last two to three years. So not only can you do a nice job of encapsulating it, but they can repair the LEDs as well, even after encapsulation.  So that's a major thing that's happening, and one of the things that I saw at the show was i5LED actually had a double difficult display that they did in the sense that it's a corner, an inside corner, which is difficult to do with LEDs to get, so there's not any seams or anything. But then the second thing they did is they put a touch overlay on an encapsulated COB display so you could touch. It had multi-touch on it. So again, really interesting to see the future of what's happening.  Yeah, because touch and LED were different worlds for the longest time, and it's only been recently where you start to see IR frames around displays that would make them interactive, and you wouldn't want to touch a conventional SMB display because it was going to damage it.  Ted Romanowitz: Exactly, especially when you get to 1.2 millimeters and below. The joke has always been that you needed to put a little tray underneath the LED wall that you were touching to capture all of the LED pixels that were falling off. But now, that's improved with all these new manufacturing techniques.  Are there benefits as well to COB in terms of energy consumption or brightness, things like that? Ted Romanowitz: Yeah, and the answer is yes. It's really incredible to see. Early in the LED market, if you've got 600 nits that was a lot, now you're seeing indoor displays at a 1000 or 1500 nits, which allows you to put them in a high ambient light situation, room that has Florida ceiling windows, like an office or an atrium, or even in a store window or of course outdoors in a kind of a kiosk or a standalone LED display. So this package is like technology; the chips are getting so small that you're filling in the space between the chips with an ultra black covering. That increases the contrast ratio and makes HDR content sing.  Yeah, it's like the old days of plasma displays and how their big benefit was deep blacks.  Ted Romanowitz: Exactly.  Yeah, so one of the things I came away with from ISE, and I had the impression in earlier shows as well, but really amplified this year with all the talk around micro LED and how it's coming, and that's like the ultimate super premium display.  I would look at the current product line of manufacturers who are doing COB and think, okay, that's more than good enough. I don't know that the world needs to get to micro LED video walls for us to finally have good-looking LED video walls. We're already there.  Ted Romanowitz: That's true, but really, it comes down to a cost basis, and this is where we've modeled. Working with some of the biggest OEMs and ODMs in the world, we've modeled the volume that they're going to be able to produce over the next several years, and the quality that they'll be able to deliver in mass quantities, and basically, the outcome is that by the early 2030s, let's say a 77-inch or 80-inch micro LED display chip on glass will be $4,000 or less and so that brings it into mass adoption and really makes it useful for, not only does it enable the close up viewing that chip on glass does, or chip on board, but it enables a price point where you're going to see it broadly deployed in meeting rooms and corporate, you'll see it in classrooms and education, all across stadiums, venues, hospitality, every different market vertical is going to be impacted by a price point of LED that's comparable to LCD today within the next several years.  Why wouldn't that happen just with COB?  Ted Romanowitz: It's the cost basis of being able to do things on a PCB is more expensive versus a TFT backplane. Over the long run, it has to shift towards a TFT backplane, a glass backplane.  The barrier to that happening right now is unlike COB, where mass transfer appears to have been worked out. It's still a work in progress on the chip on the glass or micro LED side, right? Ted Romanowitz: It is. There are a few other roadblocks that have to be overcome for chip on glass to be in volume with high quality, high yields, and when that happens, then you'll start seeing the volume ramp and the price really starts to drop.  So there will be a day, early in the next decade, when chip-on-glass micro LED displays have the same dimensions, same resolution, everything else would be at price parity with LCD. Ted Romanowitz: Yes, with LCD today. What Moss has been looking at with the rest of the team is what's gonna happen with flat panel LCD, interactive LCD, and projection. What are the unique instances where those need to be implemented, best-fit applications and what they're doing to drive price down and add value, differentiate to keep extending those product life cycles. Moss, is there much runway still for LCD? I'm also very curious about OLED, which keeps getting better technically but is still pretty narrowly defined, particularly on the pro-AV side.  Morris Garrard: Yeah. I think there are a few nuances here that we need to consider when we're talking about the LCD product lifecycle.  How we looked at this in our recent strategic market outlook was to split the market into three parts. So first, looking at the video will market, then looking at the digital signage market, and then looking at what we define as the presentation market, so in front of classroom, front of boardroom devices. Video wall, I think it's no real surprise that it is certainly being cannibalized by LED the fastest. We're already seeing that kind of impact happening at, I think, back in 2020; even LED overtook LCD as the main contributor to market value in the video wall market. If we then look at digital signage, which obviously would include screens that are sub 100 inch, which typically would have the price per resolution advantage over LED. We're already seeing LED making inroads to that market as well, so it's actually in 2025 that we're expecting LED to overtake LCD as the main contributor to the market value. Then, looking at the presentation market, which is very much dominated by the likes of interactive flat panel display, but then also obviously nontouching in many boardrooms as well. Obviously, there is still that cost consciousness when it comes to presentation displays. However, in the more narrow pixel pitch segments, as Ted mentioned, that price attrition that we're expecting over the next few years, it's going to rapidly increase the adoption of LEDs within the boardroom, especially the boardroom, and perhaps less so in K12, which obviously makes up the bulk of the education segment. But we're expecting by 2028 that LED will overtake LCDs and market value share by that point. That's not to say necessarily that the LCD market is going away in volume terms. I think the key point is in terms of value. Prices are continuing to erode to really race to the bottom on LCD. And then obviously, yeah, with volume starting to flatten out, LED is making inroads quite rapidly.  What about OLED? Morris Garrard: OLED's an interesting one. I think the key stumbling block for OLED in the professional displays market has been the price, as opposed to LCD. We're looking at around about 1.5 to 2X differential, which within the cost conscious mindset, especially in signage, but also in presentation displays as well. It has presented an obstacle to adoption. So OLED, we're looking at around 1% of volumes across the global market in terms of volume, and really that's stayed quite stable over the last few years, hasn't ramped as perhaps was expected a few years ago,  One thing that was intriguing to me was reading some of the stuff coming out of CES and then going to ISE, and I went to the TCL booth, I believe and they had a 120 or 125-inch something, giant TV, and I was thinking, okay, that I know what they're doing with these things. There's local dimming and everything else, and the visuals coming out of these displays are stunning. They look borderline OLED quality and at that form factor, as costs come down on manufacturing those things, they are starting to approach, very close in size to all in LED displays that a lot of manufacturers have in their product lines to simplify things for meeting spaces, conference rooms and so on. Do you see these LCDs getting some traction, supplanting the all-in-one LEDs?  Morris Garrard: Do you know what, Dave? That's a really interesting point because we had a number of conversations at ISE about the opportunity for larger than 100-inch LCDs. I think my answer to those individuals was that there may be an opportunity for now. I think the price attrition that we're seeing on all-in-one LEDs will bring those displays into, maybe not into price parity, then at least, within the same kind of ballpark.  But I think the other key issue with, let's take 120 inch LCD, for example, is the logistics of it. If you're in a boardroom and you're on the fifth floor, and you've got to fit a 120-inch LCD into a lift, then where we're based in Europe, that's absolutely not going to happen. Maybe in North America where you guys have your freight elevators and whatnot, but I think in terms of being able to install the display itself. You're not carrying that on the stairs.  Morris Garrard: Exactly, and let's say someone does crack it on the floor as they're installing it, then you've got to replace the whole thing. Whereas with an LED wall, it's just one module that needs to be replaced. I think there are those challenges as well that will limit the opportunity in that segment.  Are you seeing much innovation when it comes to LCD and OLEDs?  Morris Garrard: I would say in terms of the commercial LCD market, over the last few years, the key points of innovation have been, as you say, OLED initially, 8K resolution, 21:9, and then high brightness and kind of outdoor displays lumped into one. Those have really been the key points of development.  In terms of market adoption, though, they haven't really taken off. I would say high brightness and outdoors are probably the best examples, accounting for around 2 to 4% of market volumes, whereas the rest is still lingering around 1 to 2%. There was a lot of buzz and quite a bit of activity at ISE around electronic ink products, e-paper products, particularly on the color side. They've gotten bigger. There were 75-inch versions there. I had seen them earlier when I was over in Taiwan, and I thought, okay, this is interesting, but it's really early days, and this is a proof of concept more than anything else because yeah, they didn't look bad, but they didn't look good.  Morris Garrard: Yeah, I think e-paper is an interesting one and I think it presents a fantastic opportunity to the pro displays industry as a whole I think there has been a bit of maybe industry confusion around the purpose and the intended use case for e-paper and I think the point that really needs clarifying is that e-paper is not here to replace lcd I think in many ways it's there to complement LCD. Yes, it’s there to replace print.  Morris Garrard: It's there to replace print, exactly, and one of the key conversations around that exact point is, would using the 16:9 aspect ratio be the most appropriate? Obviously, for signage customers that are used to digital signage, then yes, but for those end users that are replacing print signage would actually like the A Series, for example, be a more appropriate sizing range to use. I think that this market segment is still figuring some of those things out. But yeah, definitely a lot more, A lot more on on show at ISE this year, which was fantastic to see, and even new brands as well, not only kind of new models from those brands that were already active in the space. As I say, it's the early adopter phase at the moment, but I think certainly a lot of industry potential.  It was interesting, though, because, with all the buzz around it, I don't know that many people because they don't have a reason to be paying that close attention to it. They don't understand that all of these color e-paper displays are coming from one manufacturer, and whether it's Samsung Sharp or Agile Display Solutions, they're remarketing and tweaking E Ink's product. Is there any other manufacturer out there that you've run into that's actually coming up with something that is also color e-paper? I'm aware of some ESL manufacturers who are not using E Ink, but that's monochrome stuff.  Morris Garrard: Yeah, I would say really the pioneer is obviously E Ink. I have seen some Chinese facsimiles, but I would say, generally, the major brands that we work with are working with E INk.  Tearing through stuff here out of necessity, but I wanted to ask about projection.  Morris Garrard: With projection, I think, there is a tendency within the industry to focus on all of the innovation that's happening in LED especially, and thinking that projection is going away silently, but we're still expecting the projection is going to be a very robust component of market value by the end of the decade. We're still looking at a multi-billion-dollar industry by 2029 or 2030.  I would say the conversation within projection has shifted; it's a very mature product segment, of course. We're not really seeing the kind of product revolutions anymore in terms of feature sets or whatnot, the conversation has now shifted more towards the applications for projection. So where can projection be used where other display technologies may not be appropriate? One of the key applications, of course, that's grabbing a lot of headlines is projection mapping, for example, being able to scale an image at a massive scale onto things like historic buildings, for example. You're not going to be doing that with led in, historic cities in Europe, for example, it's just not going to happen. But finding other applications as well, for projection where the other technologies just wouldn't be able to be deployed basically.  When I go to a giant show, like an ISE, I will run into folks like you two and lots of other industry people who've been around for a long time, and we'll always have the conversation of: so,  what did you see that? I need to go see that as well, and I have my own thoughts around that, but I'm curious if there are technologies or particular manufacturers who you came across and thought, “Oh, that's interesting”. Ted Romanowitz: I'll jump in and say, both the chips on board, the wall at Samsung and the LG magnet at their booth looked fantastic, and then you saw chip on glass actually demonstrated in a large format, 136 inch at LG, as a kind of a TV kind of format. Samsung had the transparent micro LED, which I think shows they're starting to evolve their thinking. It's such a cool technology, but I think everyone's struggling with what the killer application for transparent micro LED is just because companies have been struggling with the idea of a transparent OLED. Where does it really fit in? Those are some of the killer things that I saw.  The waterfall at Lang booth. I thought it was incredibly cool, as was the kinetic LED display facing the LG booth. Not practical, but it's cool.  Yeah, and that one, I was impressed by a lot more than previous kinetic LED walls that I've seen because this was more like a game show spinning tile thing where you didn't have all this, very tight synchronizing of modules to make it look good, and I saw another kinetic LED wall I was talking to an old industry friend who said, yeah, this thing's cool, but it's breaking down every half an hour because his stand was right next to it. So it's handled with care.  Ted Romanowitz: Yeah, I thought the other cool part of that kinetic display at LG was the fact that they drew in a social media aspect where you could, upload your picture and they do a little AI magic and all of a sudden you can see Dave Haynes right up there in the middle of the LG kinetic wall. Yes, you could, but I tried that, and it turned me into a guy going through a gender transition, which I'm not quite sure how that happened.  Ted Romanowitz: We love everybody. So that's good. We love you for just who you are, Dave. That's all I'm gonna say about that. It's a side of me I hadn't thought about, but some people said you look good like that. I don't know. Okay, sorry, but it ain't happening.  Moz, how about you?  Morris Garrard: Yeah, we've already touched on it. Compared with the conversations I was having around e-paper at the end of last year, I was amazed to see larger than 32-inch form factors, let alone 75 inches. I think it was at the Dynascan booth. I was just impressed purely with the progress that technology is making in such a short space of time. So yeah, that, for me, was the takeaway.  All right. This has been great. We could have easily spoken for three hours, but we had limited time somehow or other. I appreciate you guys jumping on the phone with me.  Ted Romanowitz: Thanks so much. It's a pleasure, and we're headed over to Taiwan and Korea, so maybe we can talk again and give you some feedback on what we saw at Touch Taiwan with some of the big OEMs and ODMs in Asia.  You gonna have some Soju? Ted Romanowitz: I will definitely have that.  Alright, thanks, guys.  Morris Garrard: Thanks so much, Dave.

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  35:07

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