The Creative Shoofly Podcast

• Interviews with Participants at the Everything Conference

  In this episode, I interview some of my fellow participants at this year’s Everything Conference in Minneapolis. We talk about creativity and multipotentiality.   Links mentioned in this episode Everything Conference Puttyverse How To Be Everything by Emilie Wapnick World Domination Summit Camp Indie Some of the above are affiliate links and I may earn a small commission.   Transcript Welcome to the Creative Shoofly. I'm Thomas Beutel. This podcast is about exploring the creative journey as an artist. And in this episode, I speed-interview some of the people I met at this year's Everything Conference, which was held in Minneapolis. The Everything Conference is a semiannual gathering of multipotentialites, and it's styled as an unconference, where everyone is a participant, and the workshops and experiences are led by the participants themselves. I had an opportunity to lead a workshop based on some of the creative processes I've described on this podcast, mind mapping, role play, and Scrum for One, and I'm happy to say that I got some nice feedback. In addition to participating in other experiences, I met a lot of wonderful people and I made some new friends. It's really cool to be in a group that doesn't blink an eye when you say, I'm interested in this… and this… and this… and this! They totally get it because they have as many interests as I do. Before going to the Everything Conference, I knew that I wanted to interview my fellow multipods, and the idea I came up with was to write a bunch of questions and have them pick one at random. Half of the questions are about creativity, and half about multipotentiality. I ended up writing them on a set of blank Bicycle playing cards. I enjoyed seeing the look on their faces when they picked a card from the deck and realized that it was not a real playing card. I ended up interviewing about a dozen people. And we'll start with my friend, Heather. Heather: Can you tell me what it is? Oh, oh, okay. Thomas: Let's see. So, Heather. What's a piece of advice you would give to a young multipotentialite? Heather: Okay. That's a really good question because I think our society has typically been, quite, like you must choose something you have to specialize and I do think that's shifting. But in the meantime, it's really working on accepting that for yourself. Honoring that you do have all of these interests. And that basically, one, you're really awesome, you're not broken, and it's just sort of, it's, it's just like being a different flavor of human. Thomas: Yeah. Right, right. Heather: Yeah, um, and to explore, like get into your interests, try them out, it's okay to shift because that's what we do. But yeah, just to kind of honor that and try to be firm with others. Like, hey, this is really who I am, and I need your support, especially for a young person. It's just like, I need that support to nourish those interests and, and that identity, so. Thomas: Thank you very much. Thomas: So, Colleen, how do you know when a creative project is finished? Colleen: Oh, that is a hard question, because most creatives I know, they'll, they'll pick at it. And never let it go. I think there's a couple ways to see. One is by sharing your work. Because other people will see the whole better than you will. Another time is just to be comfortable with good enough, it meets your standards, and then let it out in the world. I think when we don't let our work out, it's really, fear that it won't be good enough. Thomas: Right. So that letting go part is, is key. Colleen: I think that is what it is. I mean, we don't, you know, especially people who do, one off work, and you know in my practice, I know that a lot of times I'm terrible at planning. I don't, I'm trying to learn how to sketch my work ahead of time, but really I just see what the materials want to be. And so it's sometimes hard to know when you're done because you didn't know what you were going to do when you start it. I think if you know, it's kind of like, well, in my corporate life project is done because you define done at the beginning. In my creative work, I'm not as good at doing that. Thomas: Great. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thomas: Let me pull up my cards. All right. Stacey, how do you stay updated and informed in multiple fields? Stacey: Okay, primary way I do is I'm an avid reader. And my tastes are eclectic. So I'll read across anything that interests me. I mainly do nonfiction though. I do read fiction as well. And even a lot of the fiction you can learn or you can learn a lot of things or even spark thoughts if, especially if it's an author like a Michael Crichton, I'm trying to think like Dan Brown. Or those that meticulously or carefully that they really research before they write. So you learn a lot of stuff even from there. Thomas: They really study their craft. Stacey: So whatever the novel or that they're writing, you get a lot of good detail. And that usually has sparked me to look into other things, whether it's… mainly travel. But also trying new things or trying something based on something I read. But like I said, also read nonfiction. I usually read four or five books at once. So that's the primary, but also internet of course. And then coming to things like this, and just interacting with people and just hearing what I call like just different perspectives of what people are into. I'm lucky that, you know, I've either lived in big cities or in this now, like in a college town. So of course you have like a lot of different people with a lot of different ideas that sort of cross pollinate. So that also kind of helps, not just expose me to new things, but also even stuff that I do, interacting with other people that are into the same thing, but may have either a different level of experience or perspective. Thomas: Well, thank you very much. Thomas: All right, Cristy, how do you deal with creative burnout? Cristy: You know, I am really fortunate because I'm a multipod. So when I feel like I have creative burnout in one particular area, like I've been writing too much and it's just getting foggy, I can switch. I can do something verbal like a podcast or a discussion with someone. Or an interview with someone. And somehow I feel that it's returns my energy to me. So I think having a couple of different interests that you juggle is a real benefit because when you, when one of them just gets stale or you're not inspired, you can draw from that well of the other kinds of interests and hobbies. Thomas: Isn't that a wonderful thing about being a multipotentialite? Cristy: I love it the most. I love it the most. And I think also when you have those creative energizing people that you talk with, you can, you can draw from that too. You can be like, eh, I'm a little stuck, you know, like let's talk about whatever. And it'll spur something in you. So it's a real benefit. Thomas: Thank you. Cristy: Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for asking. Thomas: Alright, Ted. how do you celebrate your multipotentiality? Ted: I celebrate it in my day-to-day life. Basically, based on how I live my life, I choose multi very multipotentiality friendly work and career. And, I don't shy away from it. I really embrace it. And it's, it's been a journey to get to that point, but I'm very happy with, with that. And, you know, a lot of it's the support from the group, for sure, from the Puttyverse and, and more broadly speaking, but people who get it, people who understand that. And, uh, it really helps us, I think, survive and thrive with that kind of mentality. Thomas: It's important to celebrate and it's important also to, to really have a good support group and that understands it. So thank you. Ted: Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thomas: Okay, Lisa, what role does failure play in your creative process? Risa: It's a tough one because I don't see failure in my creative process every time, like I do something and then I just try to make it better the next time. So it's not necessarily a failure. Because it's, again, it's a spontaneous, creative, instantaneous kind of thing that I go for. And so there is really no wrong way to do it. Just jump in and do it. So I've never, it's a tough question cause I feel like it's not, I don't view it as a failure. It's just Thomas: Right. So failure to you is just, it's just an iterative process. You just go and figure it out and do the next thing. That's wonderful. Thank you. Thomas: So Ryan, what's the most rewarding aspect of being a multipotentialite? Ryan: That it's opened my life to meeting people I never would have met if I wasn't a multipotentialite. Thomas: And that's fantastic because it's like, I want to meet these people. Ryan: No matter what size city you live in. And I'm, I'm from, I've spent 44 of my 46 years in Northeast Ohio, Youngstown, Ohio, and Cleveland, Ohio. Also briefly lived in Washington DC and Ann Arbor, Michigan. But when I read Emily's book, How To Be Everything, I thought she was writing my biography. And I immediately joined the then Puttytribe, now Puttyverse. After reading the book and listening to her Ted talk, and I realized, Oh, there's several hundred of these people worldwide. And this is now my second Everything Conference I've come to. And once you meet these people, you realize these would have been my best friends if I'd have met them when I was five years old instead of 40 years old. Thomas: Isn't that so true? I mean, what I love about it is it's just sort of like there's an instant comfort level. Ryan: Yes, absolutely. Fully agree with that. There's a sense of if you were all little kids in the same sandbox, that sandbox becomes a lot bigger. It's not just the six by eight or whatever your dad was able to fit in the backyard. It becomes like a football field size sandbox. And there's a little corner over here where people are doing arts and crafts. There's a corner here where people are business and analytical, and there's another corner where there's singing. But the one thing I found about this community, mainly the Puttyverse--I know there's World Domination Summit and Camp Indie people here as well--is it's almost agenda free. There certainly are some coaches who want you to do sessions with them. Or other people have a business plan. Or authors or artists who want you to maybe buy their book or listen to the music, but there's never that push. It's always organic, natural conversations. None of us little snowflakes are alike, but the one commonality is there's just overwhelming encouragement. There's not the vitriol and hatred you'll find at other sites. There's not the pushing us. That's what I really treasure about this community and the people I've met in it. Thomas: I do too. Thank you. Ryan: Thank you, Thomas. Thomas: So, Monica, name a place you would like to visit and why. Monica: I've always wanted, since I was a little kid, to visit Greece. Thomas: Greece? Monica: Probably because I went through, as I think a lot of kids do, a Greek mythology phase. And I still would love to see the ancient structures and learn about the ancient times. Yeah. So, Greece. Thomas: Do you think you're going to get a chance in the next, let's say, ten years? Monica: I think it's possible, but I've lately been struggling a bit with travel. So it would be something that I would have to work towards. Thomas: Alright, well, thank you very much. Thomas: So, Amy, how do you find new creative challenges? Amy: I think just by exploring, different aspects of issues. So trying to take a look at a problem or a challenge in a different way. So kind of just trying to take a step back and looking at something from a different angle, I think helps me approach a challenge differently or gives me a new challenge because I've applied a different perspective to it. So yeah, I think that would be how I approach different creative challenges. Thomas: I’m going to ask a follow up if I may. So, how do you think that your multipotentiality sort of, is a part of how to find a creative challenge. Amy: I think it's actually essential to being able to, so I think my multipotentiality allows me to see things from different angles because I'm interested in so many things. I can kind of look at things from a scientific perspective, an artistic, a musical perspective. So being able to be interested in so many things and know a little bit about a lot of things, it kind of helps me put different perspectives or bring different ideas, that maybe are not traditionally associated with a particular challenge into that challenge. Thomas: Well, thank you. Thomas: So Marcus, how do you handle criticism of your creative work? Marcus: A good way that it seems to handle criticism would be to just approach it with an open mind, understanding that we all have areas in which we can improve and just trying to approach your work from a humble and honest perspective. If you really care about delivering a quality product, you're going to want the truth first. As the saying goes, all progress begins with truth. I think it was Socrates or someone said that. But, yes, just, just approaching it from the perspective of that. There's always another stair rung I can go up. Or another level I can go. So just seeing it from the perspective of, we can always take another step towards perfection. Thomas: Yeah. All right. Thank you. Thomas: Vanessa, what does creativity mean to you? Vanessa: Oh, I love this question because I think sometimes we are brought up to think that creativity are only for like the artists and the makers. And, you know, Oh my gosh, they're so creative. They made that cool sculpture or painting or jewelry, or look at how they like dress, they're so creative. And to me, the creativity is like what lights us up, what sparks us, how we feel alive. And we're like creating or doing or being like our best self. And sometimes creating is putting together a delicious meal. Sometimes creating is, the simple gestures of bringing together different friends and say, Oh my goodness, you should speak to this friend about that, or you would like to hear this story. It's, you know, it's these behind the scenes creativity. I believe that I am a creative person in the events I create. Right? So yeah, creativity is just the thing that lights you up. It feels good. I'm sure there are football coaches who are creative because they make an amazing, you know, plays, trick plays and stuff like that. Creativity is actually all around us. Those who really can take pause and look are going to see it. Thomas: I like what you said about being. Creativity is a lot about the being. And I think your creativity is creating community. Vanessa: Oh, thank you. That is literally one of the best compliments. Definitely! Creating and cultivating, curating community is important to me and something I love to do. And it is a special place of creativity and bringing people together. It just, it lights me up. Thomas: Thank you. Vanessa: Thank you so much. Thomas: Tomoko, how do you manage the transition from idea to execution? Tomoko: Thank you very much. So first, I use my mind map to jot down all the ideas that I have inside of my head. And once I finish listing it, I put, like, I divide it into two categories, which is my priority project and, like, take it for later project, I would say. And I focus from the top of my priority list into execution. Tomoko: So I like to divide the ideation process from the execution process. That's how my brain works better. Speaker 17: And if I can ask a follow up question. When you create your mind map and then you are sort of prioritizing, how long do you think that usually takes you? Do you spend hours on it or is it fast or slow? What do you think? Speaker 18: Thank you for the follow up question. I think it depends on the size of the project. So sometimes I mind map twice because if I have a very big project, I like to jot it down to like what kind of process I have to go through. So it takes me to the another, second mind map. But if it's a smaller project, it's gonna take me about maybe 30 minutes to hour to wrote the mind map and to build the execution plan. I will take other day because my brain is like, doesn't like to function for like ideation and execution at one time. Thomas: Ah, okay. Well, thank you very much. Tomoko: Thank you so much, Thomas. Thomas: And, let's take a look at this card. Joel, what inspires you? Joel: What inspires you? Uh, the sun is the first thing that comes to my mind. But I might be thinking a little bit too literally in terms of a synonym of what sparks me, what gives me energy and enthusiasm. The sun is, both from an intellectual perspective, I realize that that is the source of my life and all other life on this planet. Um, but spiritually, I really get inspired by the fact that the sun comes up and goes down every day, without fail, and even when it's cloudy, the sun is always there. You just have to feel it behind the clouds. Can I have a two-part answer? Thomas: Yes, go ahead. Joel: There can be an and? Thomas: Yes, and. Joel: Yes, and? Thomas: Yes, and. And I love that, that first part of the answer. And I'm glad too that it goes, comes up and goes down every night, every day. Joel: Yeah. Uh, humanity in general inspires me. I love humans, especially the challenging ones. And sometimes it's hard to do that in the moment. But the people who have challenged me to be a kinder, more patient, more respectful and trusting version. I really appreciate all the opportunities that humanity gives me. My family, my friends, incredible people that I get to meet around the world who come to my hometown from time to time for events that I help co-organize. It's just so cool that we can be together, do so many things, discuss so many things, experiment in so many ways. I just get endless inspirations from just these tiny little moments of interacting with all these incredible humans around the world. Thomas: Thank you, and thank you for inviting us to Minneapolis. This is a wonderful place. Joel: Agreed. Shall I say more? No. Thank you. Speaker 26: Thanks to Joel, Tomoko, Vanessa, Marcus, Amy, Monica, Ryan, Lisa with an R, Ted, Christy, Stacy, Colleen, and Heather for being willing to play with me on this podcast. It was fun to see which questions would pop out of the deck, and I was delighted how thoughtful the answers were. If you're interested to learn more about multipotentiality, check out Emily Wapnick's TED Talk, Why Some of Us Don't Have One True Calling. And also check out the Puttyverse community, which is an online gathering of multipods. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Creative Shoofly. If you liked today's episode and want to hear more about the creative process, please consider subscribing to The Creative Shoofly wherever you get your podcasts. That's it for now. Be well, and be creative.

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  20:45
• Busting Creative Blocks with Meditative Ideation

  In this episode, I discuss meditative ideation, a mindfulness practice that I've honed over the years to combat creative block. It has transformed my creative process, and I think it can unlock new realms of inspiration for you too.   Links mentioned in this episode Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert How boredom can lead to your most brilliant ideas, a TED talk by Manoush Zomorodi The Wisdom of Not Knowing by Estelle Frankel The Artist's Way by Julie Cameron Some of the above are affiliate links and I may earn a small commission.   Transcript Thomas: Welcome to the Creative Shoofly. I'm Thomas Beutel. This podcast is about exploring the creative journey as an artist, and in this episode, I'll be discussing a mindfulness practice that I've honed over the years to combat creative block. It has transformed my creative process, and I think it can unlock new realms of inspiration for you too. Today I'd like to tell you about a dream-like technique that I call meditative ideation. The essence of the technique is to calm the mind, get the voice in your head to stop talking, and to be quiet enough to invite inspiration in, and to invite ideas in. I've been using this technique for a number of years now, and as a result, I rarely experience the blank page syndrome or the creative block that I used to have. I think everyone struggles somewhat with creative block. For many people, and this might include you, creative block is not often a lack of creativity. It's usually due to too much focus. Now that might seem strange, but being overly focused on a problem will prevent the flow of new ideas. Focus form of creative block. Focus blocks to allow those ideas to emerge. I used to struggle with creative block quite a lot. I'd sit down and say, okay, I need an idea, and then I'd wait, and I'd wait, and I wouldn't think of anything, and then I would go off and start criticizing myself. My monkey mind would just keep on talking and putting myself down. It would say, “You're a creative person, what's going on with you? Why can't you come up with a single creative idea?” I'm sure many of you listening have experienced this type of self-criticism, and it sure isn't conducive to creative thinking or being inspired. Things started to change for me when I read a book called Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. She has a wonderful concept of how inspirations work. In her telling, inspirations are living things that go around the world looking for creative people to make them manifest, to put them into action. The idea of inspiration shopping around for creators really resonated with me. I just imagined a great idea looking at a sea of humanity and saying, “I pick you, Thomas, because I know you're a creative person.” It feels kind of flattering, actually. So I began wondering, how do I actually invite inspiration in? What would the process look like? At about the same time, I listened to a TED talk by Manoush Zomorodi. Her talk was about the default mode network of the mind. This is a part of the brain that jumps into action when you're not focusing, and not paying attention to something in particular. A lot of people say that they get their best ideas when they're taking a shower, or they're going on a walk. The way it works is when you're in a very relaxed state, and the mind isn't focused on anything, the default mode network starts making connections between all kinds of different places in the brain. The point that Manoush makes is that so many of us don't allow our minds to idle to the point where the default mode network can come in. And the connections that are made are where inspiration comes from. Or, as Elizabeth Gilbert might put it, this is when inspiration finds you because it knows that you can make it manifest. So after seeing the TED Talk, the question I asked myself, could I simply close my eyes and empty my mind enough to engage my default mode network? This was an intriguing idea. I had already been doing a daily meditation for a number of years, and I was very familiar with the meditative style where you breathe, and if any thought comes by, you let it drift by, and you just let your mind think about nothing else other than your breathing. I can't say that I'm really good at it, but at least I became aware of when my mind is busy with thought and when my mind is calm and relaxed. I thought that that might be a way to try to activate my default mode network. And I started doing it, and yes, I can report that it indeed does. So I formalized it into a practice where I intentionally quiet the mind and let wonderful ideas come along. I call it meditative ideation. The key difference between breathing meditation and this practice is that I'm allowing interesting ideas to stay and evolve rather than letting the thoughts go as I would in a breathing meditation. I still watch for non-creative ideas and dismiss them as soon as I can. And this happens a lot at the beginning of a session, and I still have unproductive and self-critical thoughts show up. As soon as I recognize that I'm having one of those thoughts, I let go of them. Eventually, my mind relaxes enough that truly interesting and creative thoughts appear. It's a joy when it happens, and it confirms for me that this is a practice worth doing. Embracing the quietude necessary for meditative ideation might seem daunting to you. The concept of sitting in silence, clearing your mind of its endless thoughts and distractions, can feel like an unfamiliar or even monumental task. Despite its simplicity on the surface, reaching a state of mental stillness is anything but easy. You might find, as many do, that your thoughts persistently wander toward daily concerns and lingering questions. This illustrates the persistent nature of our inner dialogue. You might also question the productivity of this practice, wondering if dedicating time to quieting the mind could ever be worthwhile. Initial forays into meditation rarely bring instant insights, which can feel frustrating. In our fast-paced world, carving out twenty to twenty-five minutes a day for quiet reflection might seem like an unaffordable luxury. And then there is a more intimate obstacle, the fear of facing your own thoughts. In the silence of meditation, your mind may venture into realms that you'd rather avoid, making the practice seem all the more challenging. Despite these hurdles, I encourage you to give meditative ideation a try. The journey towards stillness and the inspirations it can unlock might require patience and perseverance. But the rewards are profound. Learning to quiet your mind can open the door to boundless creativity. It's an investment for your creative practice that truly pays off. So I invite you to embrace the practice, to step beyond that initial discomfort and skepticism. You might just discover a wellspring of ideas and inspiration waiting for you. The practice of quieting your mind and starting to receive inspiration is a very interesting experience. You'll have your eyes closed and you won't see anything, but occasionally you'll see some forms taking shape. But more than that, your mind will just be drifting and quieting down. You'll experience serenity and calm, and then all of a sudden your mind catches a theme. And the theme might be something like animation, or it might be watercolor painting. Sometimes it depends on what you did during the day. A memory will show up in your thoughts, and as long as you're thinking about something creative, run with it. Let the thought just go where it wants to go. And then all of a sudden, an idea will coalesce. To me it's like a sparkle and then all of a sudden, boom there's an idea. What I do at that point is I open my eyes and I start writing in my journal, where I keep all of my ideas. Allowing the mind to wander allows the default mode network to activate and that leads to the connecting of disparate ideas. How is watercolor painting related to animation? I don't know. But when you're in a state of meditative ideation, what may come forward is a series of watercolors forming the basis of the animation. That's how ideas form. It's like the mind just wants to find solutions to these little conundrums that appear when you're ideating. When I sit down, I always give myself about 25 minutes or so for the practice. Within that time, I usually come up with maybe two or three good ideas. But there will be some days where it's just one idea. And occasionally I'll spend the whole 25 minutes and not have a single inspiration come up at all. But that's rare now. Usually, I'll have multiple ideas pop up. But when you're starting out, you might not get immediate results. The key here is to let go of focus. If you're too focused on something, the default mode network doesn't engage. As I do this practice and I feel or sense that my thoughts are getting too focused, I'll dismiss the thought. Empty my mind again, and then just let my visual field see the nothingness of closed eyes. I find that during a session I'll be letting go many times because my thoughts become too focused. The challenge is clearing the mind just enough to keep the mind relaxed and the default mode network engaged. It's a mental dance that gets easier the more you do it. Another challenge is carving out the time to do a meditative ideation session. If you're like me, you're busy during the day. And if you don't actually set aside some time, you'll find you've gone a couple weeks having done the practice. In my practice, I usually set aside the time between 5 and 6 o'clock, after I'm done with my client work. This way, there's a regular time slot for my meditative ideation practice. my daily meditation during the same time. That helps to get the mind in a meditative state. But you don't have to do a meditation before this practice for it to be effective. Another thing that can get in the way of doing the practice is being stressed and having a lot of interruptions. It's really hard to empty the mind and clear the mind if you're stressed, and if you're thinking about some problem that's going on in your life. Another thing that might trip you up is trying too hard. The whole purpose of this practice is to let go of all thoughts. That struggle to empty the mind is a necessary part of this. But if you try too hard, you'll fall into the trap of being overly focused. Remember to relax into it, and gently let go of non-creative thoughts as they appear. Don't criticize yourself for having a busy mind, because we all experience that same busyness. One of the reasons that I continue to do this practice is just the joy of emptying the mind and inviting new inspirations in. I'm just continually amazed by it. I've been doing this practice for four years now, and I already have two journals full of ideas. I have so many creative ideas that it would take me five lifetimes to finish them all. When I was starting out, it actually bothered me a little bit that I was coming up with more ideas than I could ever hope to complete. But what I found over time is that the truly good ideas are the ones that are going to hang around, and you're going to get a desire to actually do them. These ideas are so good that you can't help not to do them. One of the breakthroughs for me was recognizing how many really good ideas come forth from this process. Every so often, maybe every couple of months, I actually go back to my journals and I take a highlighter and I highlight the ones that still seem amazing and exciting and new. Even though our understanding of the default mode network of the brain is fairly recent, people seem to have had an innate understanding of it for millennia. Buddhist practice includes accessing states of consciousness beyond the ordinary. Sufi mystics often describe states of ecstatic union with the divine. Christian mystics speak of turning inward to access a deep well of spiritual wisdom. Hindu philosophy has an emphasis on the mind to access deeper levels of insight and creativity. One of my favorite guides to using silence for connecting with creativity is Estelle Frankel. She wrote a book called The Wisdom of Not Knowing. And in it she describes the idea of embracing ambiguity and the unknown. She writes about Jewish mysticism and the Kabbalah. One of the things that she explains is the concept of white fire and black fire. Black fire represents the written words that are the tangible and explicit knowledge set forth in the words of the Torah. The white fire, in contrast, is the intangible white space between the words. And that represents the implicit and the unknown. The point of the concept is that wisdom doesn't come alone from one or the other. It comes from both. And I just like the way this sort of ties in with the idea of inspirations and ideas coming from nothing. It aligns well with the practice of meditative ideation. I like to think that when I'm doing this practice, I'm closing my eyes, I'm allowing the white fire to be present. I'm allowing myself to be connected with the unknown and unknowable source. In Jewish mysticism, to something called the ayin. This is a profound idea. In the Kabbalah it represents the nothingness or the void. It's closely associated with the ultimate state of union, with the divine or with God. Some people refer to this as the source. Ayin in the Kabbalah tradition is a state that's way beyond human comprehension. And they believe that everything emanates from this nothingness. Accessing ayin through meditation can be viewed as a way to tap into the boundless source of divine inspiration and creativity. Estelle Frankel has an entire chapter on creativity and really touches upon these ideas. In her book The Artist's Way, Julie Cameron encourages artists to write morning pages. The practice of writing morning pages can be seen as a way to empty the mind. If your mind is preoccupied, then you won't have the space for new ideas to form. So morning pages can be a way of releasing concerns and worries that are floating around in the mind so that you can then have the space to invite new inspirations In wrapping up this exploration of meditative ideation, I want to leave you with a few pivotal steps that could transform your creative journey. First and foremost, if meditation isn't already a part of your routine, I encourage you to embrace it. Find a form of meditation that resonates with you, one that guides you toward silence and tranquility within your mind. This foundational step is crucial because it teaches you the art of calming your mind, setting the stage for creativity to flow. Next, make a commitment to yourself. Carve out a regular time slot each week dedicated solely to the practice of meditative ideation. It doesn't have to be long. just a thirty-minute window where you can sit undisturbed. Allowing your mind the freedom to make connections between all of the experiences already within you. This regularity builds a sanctuary for your ideas to flourish. Finally, keep a journal. This journal will become the treasure chest of your mind's adventures, capturing the sparks of inspiration that visit you. It's a tangible reminder of your creative potential, waiting to be explored further. Understand that quieting the mind is perhaps the most challenging aspect of this practice, but also the most rewarding. With patience and perseverance, you'll find yourself guided toward the boundless divine where emptiness becomes the fertile ground for your inspiration. Remember the journey to unlocking your creative essence through meditative ideation is unique to everyone. Be kind to yourself as you navigate this path. The beauty of this practice lies not just in the ideas generated, but in the process of inviting silence, allowing your mind the space to breathe and to wander. It's in this space that creativity dances freely, untethered by constraints. Of the focused mind. So embrace the quiet and let your creative journey unfold. Who knows what incredible ideas await discovery in the serene landscape of your mind? Thank you for listening to this episode of the Creative Shoofly.. If you like today's episode and want to hear more about the creative process, please consider subscribing to the Creative Shoofly wherever you get your podcasts. That's it for now. Be well and be creative.

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  16:53
• Role Playing for Multipotentialites

  In this episode, I explore how role-playing can help reduce the chaos and distraction that often plague us as artists.   Links to books and websites mentioned in this podcast You And I Make A Thing podcast website Trick Yourself Into Breaking a Bad Habit at HBR.org The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up by Marie Kondo How to Declutter in the Simplest Way Possible at SaturdayGift.com Some of the above are affiliate links and I may earn a small commission from them.   Hello and welcome to the Creative Shoofly podcast. I'm Thomas Beutel. Before I begin this episode, I want to tell you about a new podcast that I've started called You And I Make A Thing. It's where I invite fellow artists to stretch our creative boundaries by collaborating on a project that neither of us have done before. Longtime listeners will know that I started You And I Make A Thing right here on this podcast. I really enjoyed those episodes and got some really good feedback. In fact, the feedback was so positive. I decided to spin off You And I Make A Thing to its own podcast and website. You can find You And I Make A Thing wherever you podcast, and you can also find it at youandimakeathing.com. Now, even though I have a spinoff podcast, I will still be making episodes here on the Creative Shoofly. This podcast is about exploring the creative journey as an artist. And in this episode, I want to talk about how role-playing can help reduce the chaos and distraction that often plagues us as artists. This episode is specifically for multipotentialites, those of us who are curious about many different things and have a great many interests. We are sometimes called renaissance souls or polymaths, and we find ourselves pulled in many different directions. In fact, many of us have so many ideas that we want to pursue, that we get discouraged that there isn't enough time. We're starting new projects all the time, but we don't finish many of them. Because either we got bored, we learned what we wanted to learn, or something else captured our interest. We also get discouraged because in our excitement to get started on a new project, we don't allow ourselves enough time for planning and preparation. And that scattered chaotic energy that we have often means that we haven't organized our spaces. How many times have I excitedly started a project, but then I wasn't able to find the tool or part that I needed. And I know that I have it in some box somewhere, but I can't figure out where I had put it. Multipotentialites also have a habit of starting a project and then leaving it, only to come back to it six months later. And that often presents its own problems. Was everything stored properly? Do I remember where I left off and what I wanted to do next? Did I leave enough context for me to continue the project? Everybody has their own process for achieving their goals and finishing projects. But as multipotentialites, we often feel isolated and alone when pursuing them, mainly because there's no one that we can call on to help. But what if you could have a team to help you with all of your projects? What if you could just jump into each project with everything already prepared and ready to go? What of each project could get the attention it deserved? Well, you are that team. The key is to play the different roles of that team. Role-playing is the crucial factor to reducing the mental chaos that is part of multipotentiality and unlocking your creative potential. And role-playing is different than just following a process. The roles you play define what is possible at the moment. And what you leave aside. I've designed specific roles for my creative work, which involves making kinetic and three-dimensional art. But the roles can be tailored to your needs and creative goals. You might be thinking, “Isn't role-playing for kids? And besides I'm not good at role-playing because it's hard for me to pretend.” Or, “It's simply hard for me to form new habits like this.” But my bet is that you already have all of the imagination that you need to role-play. If you're like me and have pursued many interests and held a variety of jobs. You already know what it feels like to be in different roles. So what I'm going to describe to you should feel familiar. The three rules that I call upon are the studio assistant, the art director and the lead artist. I liken these roles to people in a professional kitchen. The kitchen master is responsible for the kitchen itself, making sure that everything is clean and organized, the tools are sharp and ready to use, and the food is fresh and stored safely. The sous chef is responsible for gathering the appropriate tools, utensils and cookware that'll be used for tonight's meal. They also do mise en place, chopping and prepping the food so that is ready to be cooked. Finally the master chef cooks the food, using their master skills to create a beautiful meal. I've taken these roles and map them to my art practice. The studio assistant role is responsible for organizing my studio and keeping a tidy. This role's main concern is to make sure that the studio and all its tools and materials are easily accessible and ready for use. The art director's role is responsible for planning and prepping the project. This role creates a detailed plan for each project. When the project is ready to be built, this role makes sure that all of the necessary tools and materials are out and ready for use. Ready for whom? Well, that's the lead artist. This is the role that I really look forward to. It's where I get to step into my studio and work on a fully prepared creative project. All of the work by the other two roles serves to get me into a creative flow state quickly. When I'm done with my project, finished or not, I slip back into my art director role. I capture notes and what I need to do next with the project. Then I become the studio assistant again, and I clean everything up. So why be so deliberate with these roles? Why not just prep and go? The beauty of role-playing is that it compartmentalizes the various parts of the creative cycle. And this is a crucial difference from just following a process. I tried many different processes and they weren't as effective as actually inhabiting the roles. Being the art director slows me down and makes me think, “Do I have everything that I need to start this project?” So instead of the way I did it before, where I would just clear my work bench and then just jump in, now I sit down and I try to visualize, “What am I missing? What are all the tools I need?” That helps because I don't want my creative flow to be interrupted when I have to go look for a tool or for some sort of materials. I call this visualization process hypnotic rehearsal. With hypnotic rehearsal, I imagine myself doing all the steps. I'm imagining that I'm picking up the tools and I'm building the project. I imagine my work bench in front of me. When I visualize that a tool is not there, then I know, oh, I need to have that tool as well. What I like about the art director role as it helps me pause. And it helps me think about the project before I actually launch into it. Another benefit of role-playing is emotional detachment. When I'm in my studio assistant role, I don't all of a sudden start a project, which was what I used to do. When I'm in that role, my goal is to tidy up and organize. And that's it! I'm in the mode of, “What can make my studio more efficient and my experience in it even better?” I don't allow myself to start tinkering or feeling depressed about not finishing something. When I'm in my art director role, I focus on planning the project. That includes creating a project plan that breaks down the steps, includes the tools and materials list. However, I remain emotionally detached from the project itself. I'm only thinking about what will make the project go more smoothly. As for the lead artist role. I'm not seeking emotional detachment as much as I am seeking flow, that mental state where I'm totally immersed in the project itself. I have all the tools right there on my work bench and the project just proceeds. All of the work and all the prep done by my other roles helps me to achieve flow more quickly. For most of my life, I basically created things when the mood struck when I had the urge to do something, I would just jump into it and start working on it. It feels good when you have an idea, then jump right into it. And I did get some things done. But More often than not, it would just lead to frustration because I wasn't really ready to work on the project. I didn't have things in place. I didn't have things prepared. Role-playing helps me avoid that urge. With role playing, I don't start my projects until I've fully prepared them. The other thing that's common for multipotentialites, something that I've always struggled with, is distractions. Role-playing helps me by reinforcing the idea that when I'm in a particular role, I can respond to the distraction by, “Saying not now, this is not the appropriate time to pay attention to that distraction.” The problem with distractions is that they really in reinforce sub optimal habits. Allowing myself to be distracted teaches the mind that getting pulled away and being taken out a creative flow is okay. But it's not okay! This is where I find that role-playing supports good habits, in that it helps avoid distractions. Now when I'm role-playing and I'm faced with a distraction, I have a note pad on the side to write the idea down or whatever it is, so that way I can capture it. And then maybe later on, decide if it's something that I want to pay attention to. Speaking of habits, there's a really good web resource on the Harvard Business Review website called Trick Yourself Into Breaking a Bad Habit. The article discusses five different ways that you can approach changing habits. And I liked number five in particular. It's called changing your frame. When you're asking yourself a question, it's really helpful sometimes to just tweak the words you use to represent that decision. Tweaking the words can really change how you feel about making a decision. The example they give is when you are feeling a temptation. You're far better at resisting it if you say, “I don't do that” than if you say, “I'm not allowed to do that.” It's a small change, but “I don't do that” frames the decision in terms of a personal value, whereas “I'm not allowed” frames it as someone else's value. And this relates directly to role-playing. When I'm in a role, my values are different for each of the roles. This is where emotional detachment helps me in making decisions as I'm performing that role. When I am a studio assistant, the values I have in that role are about organization. I place a high value on making my studio efficient. When I'm in the art director role, I value planning and I value preparation. Notice that I'm expressing different values in different roles. These are all still my values. But acting in different roles helps clarify which values are the most important for the moment. I do encourage you to take a look at the HBR webpage. I've gone ahead and linked it for you in my show notes. I'm sure that many of you have read Marie Kondo's book on tidying up. And I think one of the most valuable things that I learned from her book is this idea of one place for one thing. She calls it, “Tidy by Category.” And by that she means that in your house or in your creative space, your studio, wherever, there should be only one place where you find, let's say your scissors or your X-acto blades, or where all of your art papers stored. And the reason for that is if these things are scattered all around the place, you have to look into so many different places for that item. And that just takes time and effort and it produces frustration. I’ve become a real stickler for this idea of one place for one thing. All my scissors are in one place. All my rulers are in one place. All the pencils are in one place. And that's been incredibly helpful for me when I'm in my art director role, when I'm preparing a project for myself. I know exactly where I need to go for the art pencils or the rubber stamps or whatever I'm using for that project. I would definitely encourage you to read Marie Kondo's book, especially for the section on tidying by category. Another tool that I found that really helps comes from a website called SaturdayGift.com. And it's the idea of deciding what to keep and what to throw out. It's called the yes-no-maybe method. When I have to do a massive cleanup and I have to decide, okay, do I want all this stuff that's accumulated over the many years? Do I want to keep it or do I want to get rid of it? I set up three folding tables and one table is the yes table. The next table is the no table. And then there's a third table that's maybe. The beauty of this ideas that you don't have to make a decision instantly. The yeses are going to be obvious. And usually the no's are pretty obvious, too. And then you have that maybe table. So I set aside a couple of hours sometimes every couple of months and I go through this process. And what I find is a lot of the maybe’s end up being no’s. The maybe’s are basically there for me just to get over it, you know, to look at it a few more times and decide, “All right. It's really time to let go whatever it is.” The yes-no-may be method is a very useful way of organizing. And of course, when I do this, I'm in my studio assistant role. By being in that role and focused on organizing, I'm not focused on anything else. And the emotional detachment that comes with my studio assistant role helps me make the yes-no-maybe decisions more quickly and more dispassionately. I'll put a link to the Saturday gift.com article in the show notes. One of the things that I've found by doing role-playing is that it actually makes it easier to jump between projects. And what I find is that when I'm in the lead artist role, I usually last about 45 minutes to an hour before I get to a point where it's like, “Okay, I'm done!” Even though the project isn't done yet. But in my mind, I'm done. I've done as much as I want to. And so at that point I can go back to the art director role and record some context. I can say, “Okay, I'm this far in the project and the next step is this.” And it might be just a quick note. It only takes me a couple of minutes to capture the context. At that point, I can then decide to work on another project. Or maybe what I need to do is be the art director and do some planning and some preparation. Now my mind is refreshed. Because my mind is in a different space and in a different place. My multipotentialite mind likes to go from one project to the next and that's refreshing in itself. Switching roles can also refresh the mind because when you jump from lead artists back to art director, you have to shift gears. The act of shifting gears has a sort of salutary effect on the mind, because it acknowledges and supports the way the multipotentialite mind works. The compartmentalization of values, the emotional detachment, and the salutary effect of changing gears are all reasons why I'm committed to role-playing for my creative process. As you can see role-playing reinforces good habits. The benefit it brings is emotional detachment. It helps focus you on the task at hand. And each role has its own set of goals and values within the larger creative process. And that means you're less likely to get stuck or distracted. It helps you get into flow much quicker. And as I have practice role-playing as a multipotentialite, I find that I'm more satisfied because I've conquered the creative chaos that has plagued me in the past. If role-playing is something that might benefit you, I encourage you to give it a try. You can design your own roles based on the creative goals that you're trying to achieve. But I would start with a kitchen model as a framework. See, if you can corral a bit of your creative chaos and be more satisfied with your projects. And if it does help you, please let me know. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Creative Shoofly. If you like today's episode and want to hear more about the creative process, please consider subscribing to the Creative Shoofly wherever you get your podcasts. That's it for now. Be well and be creative.

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  17:19
• Scrum for One

  In this episode I explore a productivity method for creativity called Scrum for One.   Links Scrum for One by Dustin Wax Photo credits Rugby player image: Hassan Omar Wamwayi   Hello and welcome to the Creative Shoofly podcast. I'm Thomas Beutel. This podcast is about the creative process. In it, I explore ways to avoid creative blocks and procrastination. If you're a fellow multipotentialite, someone who has many different creative pursuits, you might relate to the struggle of juggling different projects at the same time. This episode in particular might interest you if you have a multitude of creative projects going on at once. I'll be talking about a planning technique I use called Scrum for One. It's the beginning of the day and I've just finished my first cup of coffee. I'm on my iPad, scrolling through the news, scanning through my Instagram feed, and then watching some new videos on YouTube. The news is depressing and boring. Instagram is full of amazing artwork that causes me to focus on my lack of productivity. And YouTube? Well, it's just full of people ranting. I look at my phone and realize that I have only two minutes before my first client meeting of the day. But you know what? My client work goes smoothly. I'm a member of my client's technology services team. And we use the Agile methodology to guide our software development. It seems to work pretty well. As a team we're working on many different projects at once and Agile helps us stay focused and productive. The day is busy, so by the end of the day I'm mentally exhausted. I end up doom-scrolling on my iPad again. I'm not making any progress on my many personal creative projects. The contrast between work and my free time is palpable. At work I'm focused and productive and I feel supported, in large part due to the team successful use of Agile. And so I start to wonder. Even though Agile is intended for teams, could there be a personal version of Agile? It's a strange question to ask whether you could apply Agile to your own artistic process. The myth of creative work is that it has to be magical and spontaneous. We make up that you can't force creativity, that you need to wait for the muses to show up before you can do any meaningful creative work. Multipotentialites in particular thrive on spontaneity and novelty, so being tied to a process or methodology might lead to a lack of excitement. The idea of using a methodology like Agile for personal creativity can be quite intimidating for some people. Perfectionists might also shy away from such a process. Agile emphasizes using the tools, materials, and time at hand, instead of waiting for the perfect moment. For perfectionists, this might seem like a constraint that limits their ability to achieve perfection in their art. But my curiosity is peaked. So I Google Agile for personal use. And the first article that shows up is Scrum for One by Dustin Wax. I'm intrigued, so I read on. Agile puts a great emphasis on constant feedback. Dustin explains that the term scrum comes from rugby and represents the team huddle after each play. In agile, the daily standup meetings give team members the ability to report on progress and identify any needs going forward. The meetings are typically no more than 15 minutes long. In the Scrum for One model you check in with yourself every day. This could be in a journal or a diary or on a simple notepad. You make notes on how your projects are going and you identify any needs going forward, perhaps noting something that you might want to research or noting a tool or material to add to a shopping list. The daily check-in is also an opportunity for self-reflection. “How did I do today? What worked well? What can I do better?” This enhanced self-awareness is one of the primary benefits of the model. It helps you identify things to improve. You make frequent adjustments to your work habits instead of waiting until the end of a long project to figure out what you can do better. Another Scrum for One principle is to work with what you have so that projects don't stall. Most project plans will have many steps, so if you can't make progress on one step, you could probably make some progress on another step. And if you're like me and have multiple projects, you can probably make progress on another project while you wait to restart the one you're stuck on. With daily check-ins, it's important to work towards clearly define short-term goals. Vague goals that stretch over months are often discouraging. It's much better to have reasonable but meaningful goals that you can name and measure every day. If you're writing a book which can take months, create a daily goal of 500 to a thousand words a day. Then in your daily scrum check-in you have a measure that you can reflect upon. Setting short-term goals and tracking progress daily allows you to stay focused and motivated. Breaking down larger projects into smaller, more manageable tasks helps you prioritize your time and make progress in multiple projects simultaneously. The last Agile principle that can be applied to your personal process is the sprint plan. This is a planning step where you decide what project or projects you'll be working on over the next week or so. It could be just a simple checklist. But the important thing is to have it out and visible as you work on your projects and also when you do your daily check-ins. In a traditional Agile sprint, you would be responsible for just one project or set of tasks. But in Scrum for One that may not be practical. After all, we have all kinds of roles that we play in our daily lives. What does help though is to set aside consistent time to work on your own stuff. And even the simplest of sprint plans can help you focus during the time that you've blocked off for your own creative projects. Dustin explains that this is not anything like a complete productivity system. But just applying the daily check-in process is a big benefit. He says, “The next time you're stuck ask yourself the simple question, ‘What's standing in my way right now?’ And see if that doesn't lead to, ‘Okay, what am I going to do about it?’” I have to admit I was never much of a planner. It wasn't that I couldn't focus, I can. But every day I would find myself interested in something new. This is something that many multipotentialites experience. I was starting projects but not finishing many of them. I felt aimless in my own creative goals. I blamed myself for not being productive enough. By the time I was finished with work and family, I was too tired for creative work. And when I did have time, I faced decision paralysis, not knowing how to start or what to start. Scrum for One changed all of that for me. I started using it when I applied for and was accepted in a local artist-in-residence program. I had three months to finish five different kinetic art pieces. And I needed something that would keep me on track. Every weekend I created a new sprint plan. And during the week I worked on my projects and did a daily check-in with myself. “How was I doing? Is there something I needed? What was I going to work on next?” One thing I realized early on is that I could be quite productive in the early morning. I had over an hour and a half of time every day between breakfast and when I started my client work that was previously spent surfing the web and other mindless stuff. And where before I would struggle to decide what I wanted to do in the mornings, I now had that decided the night before. Each morning I was jumping right into my project because I knew what I was going to do.   What using this method revealed to me was that in addition to helping me finish the art pieces on time, it was helping me change my view of myself. What I like about Scrum for One is the emphasis on introspection and self-reflection. “How am I doing?” is such a powerful question. I'm no longer blaming myself for not being productive. And I don't feel that I've lost any spontaneity. I have the flexibility to choose to do something different from my sprint plan every day. And as a multipotentialite that flexibility is freeing. As for perfectionism, I've always felt that was more of a strategy to hide your talents than to use them well. Scrum for One encourages you to use your creativity, even if the time isn’t right or you don't have the right tools and materials. I often find that I have a creative breakthrough when I'm faced with limitations. For example, I made a prototype automaton of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader fighting with lightsabers. I made it with cardboard and Popsicle sticks. And the motions were crude and imprecise, but that imprecision gave the figures a human-like quality as well as a feeling of weariness that seems appropriate for the battle. I don't find Scrum for One intimidating at all. In fact, it's just the opposite. It's comfortable because it's routine. And I feel a sense of constant course correction. Decision paralysis has basically disappeared because I'm making small affirmative decisions in my daily scrum check-ins. So that's my journey with Scrum for One. As I wrap up this episode, I want to challenge you to try Scrum for One in your own creative process. Whether you're a writer, a painter, a musician or creator of any kind, give this a go. It doesn't require you to turn your life upside down or to commit to a rigorous regimen. It just requires a few minutes every day to check in with yourself. Plan your sprints, break down your creative goals into manageable daily tasks and reflect on your progress regularly. And remember it's okay to adjust your plan along the way. That's the beauty of the system. The important thing is not how well you stick to the plan. But how well you listen to yourself. Honor your own process and find your path to productivity. This methodology is not about perfection, but about continuous progress. Thank you for tuning in to today's Creative Shoofly podcast. Your time and interest are truly appreciated. If this episode inspired you consider subscribing and sharing your thoughts on Apple Podcasts. Remember, embrace your creative spirit, continue exploring, imagining and making. Every idea, every brush stroke, every note matters. See you in the next episode.

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  11:25
• You And I Make A Thing with Michael Tarnoff

  In this episode I collaborate with artist Michael Tarnoff to make self-portraits inspired by Chuck Close.   Links O'Hanlon Center for the Arts Michael Tarnoff's Instagram Chuck Close Website Wikipedia Entry for Chuck Close Procreate for the iPad Interlude music: https://www.heise.de/select/ct/2017/13/1497796312321798   Michael's Self Portrait Thomas' Self Portrait Original Photos   Thomas: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Creative Shoofly podcast. I'm Thomas Beutel. This podcast is about exploring the creative journey as an artist. And in this episode, I'm continuing my improvisational experiment that I call You And I Make A Thing. I invited my friend Michael to come up with a theme or project that we could do together. I hope you will enjoy hearing about our project, as much as we did doing it. My guest today is Michael Tarnoff. Michael is a painter, a mixed media artist, as well as a photographer and all-around creative person. Welcome Michael. Michael: Thank you for having me Thomas. Thomas: Yeah, I'm glad to have you, Michael. I'm curious, before we get started, I'm want to know if there's some creative project that you've been working on or you're planning to work on right now? Michael: Well, you know with COVID, things changed for me artistically [00:01:00] as far as access to my painting space and such, and I've been doing more photography and small works. And right now, we're in the mountains in the Utah area and I've been fascinated with ice and snow and cold and what happens with nature with that. So I've been thinking about, in the back of my mind, a series of photographs and just thinking about them as a series of what nature does in the cold. Because I never really lived in the cold and witnessed it. Thomas: Right. Michael: There's just fascinating things like when the fog comes in and then the cold comes in. If there's just the right amount of humidity, ice crystals form everywhere and it looks, it's just, it's magic. So I'm just kind of keeping my eyes open for that and just being witness to the magic that nature creates. Thomas: Well that's great, that sounds like a real process of discovery. Michael: It is, it is. I love that you say that because where I got most of my art learning [00:02:00] from, not so much teaching but learning I'll call it, was at O'Hanlan Center for the Arts in Mill Valley. And the founder Ann O'Hanlan, one of my favorite sayings of hers was, “Exploration comes first, discovery perhaps later.” Thomas: Ah. Michael: And it’s just, it's so true when it comes to art and life. So it's really, this really is a process of exploration and discovery, with, I mean the medium is nature and the cold and what, how it's so much different from the temperate Bay Area. Thomas: Right, right. Michael: Yeah. Thomas: And I've been following you on Instagram, and your photographs have been just brilliant. Michael: Thank you. Thomas: For my listeners, I'll put a link to Michael's Instagram in the show notes. Well, exploration I think is a good segue into what we're going to be doing today, which is You And I Make A Thing. And as you know, what my goal here is to come up with [00:03:00] something that we can do together, either something that we do in parallel or something that we actually collaborate on. And Michael, prior to our conversation today, I've asked you to come up with three things that you might be interested in doing, and I've done the same. And what I was thinking of is that we'd just bounce back and forth with our ideas and then we'll see if we can coalesce on something that sounds like fun. How about that? Michael: That sounds great. Thomas: Why don't you start with something that's on your list. Michael: Okay. Let me preface it with saying that when you asked me to think of these things, it actually was harder than I thought it was going to be. And I couldn't because I'm just I'm so spontaneous with my art. I actually never think about what I want to do ahead of time and just sort of let the process flow with that in that moment. Thomas: Okay. Michael: I mean, I might know ahead of time I'm going to draw just because of, you know, whatever's happening. Thomas: Right. Michael: [00:04:00] So this was, this was very different for me. So the first thing I thought of, and these were all things, at least a couple of 'em were things that I've always thought about, but I have never done. Thomas: Uh huh. Michael: The first one was doing encaustic painting. Which is painting with paint that is mixed with wax and it sort of creates, on like a panel, it creates this dreamy kind of thing. And I've never done it before. I don't know how to do it. and I don't even know if it's practical, but it was the very first thing I thought of because I've always wanted to try it. Thomas: So I do follow a number of artists and I've seen a number of encaustic paintings, and they are sort of dreamy. They're sort of lots of different colors flowing and mixing. And that's what you're talking about, right? Michael: Right. I mean, you can do realistic stuff. I'm not a realistic painter, but one could do that with encaustic painting. But it just sounds like so much fun. I it would be quite an exploration and discovery process. Thomas: So I'm curious, is the wax [00:05:00] hot Michael: Yes. Yes. Thomas: Oh, it's hot. Oh it's hot wax. Okay. Interesting. And then you're mixing maybe like oil paints or something? Michael: Yeah. I think, or acrylic. I don't, I actually have no idea. I think you can do acrylic, may have to wear a mask. Thomas: I would imagine. Yes. It sounds interesting. Michael: Yeah. Thomas: I mean, I love sort of dreamy and very colorful palettes and drawings and, they don't need to be realistic at all. I just, I don't know about you Michael, but I really respond to color a lot. Michael: Yeah, I'm a colorist. Yeah. Thomas: Yeah. All right, well let's bookmark that one and let's see where this goes. So on my list, I've been fascinated with assemblage. You know, like box assemblage, Joseph Cornell type. Michael: Mm. Thomas: And I've noticed that there are at least a couple artists out [00:06:00] there that are doing, I guess what they call small box assemblage. They'll take, these little boxes that your iPhone comes in, or even smaller, like little jewelry boxes and then using found art, they'll put an assemblage together. Michael: Oh, wonderful. Thomas: Yeah. Michael: I've dabbled in that a tiny bit, maybe one or two in my Saturday art class at the center over the 20 plus years that I was there. And it was fun. Thomas: It's an interesting process to use found art as opposed to, I guess the best way to put it is, is like starting with an idea. Michael: Correct. Thomas: It's that exploration thing really. It's like, okay, let's see what happens here. Michael: Mm-hmm. Oh, love it. Thomas: What's, what's next on your list? Michael: Okay. My next one is, I've never worked with Sculpey Clay. Thomas: Uh huh. Michael: I've felt it and played with it, but I've actually never [00:07:00] taken it, sculpted something out of it, baked it, and then painted it. Thomas: Oh. Michael: As simple as that sounds, I've never done it and I think it would really bring out my child, and my adult at the same time to kind of co-create something, again abstract. But, I even looked into like, can you buy bulk kind of uncolored sculpey and you can. So simple but kind of. Thomas: Yeah, I mean, I played with clay but I've never fired anything before or hardened it before. So that sounds interesting. And then, you know, and not painted it after. Michael: Right, and that's the beauty of Sculpey is that you can… I guess I maybe you might even be able to paint it beforehand, I don't know. But you harden it in the oven. So it's, you don't need a kiln to do it. Thomas: Right, exactly. I like that. All right,[00:08:00] well, my next one is not very well defined. The note that I have here is mail art collage. The idea is to combine the idea of mail art and collaging together. So it might be just a collage postcard, or something that we put in an envelope and then just send to each other Michael: Oh, that's fun. Thomas: Yeah. Maybe as almost like a call and response type of thing. Michael: Oh my goodness. Huh. You know, that I could envision doing it together where you start one and then you send it, partially completed. Thomas: Right. Michael: And then you respond and we go back and forth. Thomas: Uh huh Michael: Yeah. Thomas: Maybe like a little folded book where the pages are things that we fill in with collage. Or [00:09:00] like a zebra fold? Not no, what's the name? Where they, where you fold it? Accordion! Like an accordion fold. That's what I meant. Yeah. Michael: Right. Thomas: Oh, okay. Michael: Yeah. I don't know. It sounds like a neat idea. Thomas: Alright. What's the last one on your list? Michael: All right. Hopefully you know the artist, Chuck Close? Thomas: I don't, no. Tell me. Michael: He did self-portraits, huge self-portraits, and what he did was he narrowed down and magnified into little, he would make a little grid pattern. So maybe it would be a nine-foot by six-foot self-portrait. Right. But he would make grids that were maybe one inch by one inch, or two inch by two inch. And he would zoom in on the photograph and see what the swirl pattern or color pattern might look like. Thomas: Right. Michael: And he would paint that in each little box. And so he would, [00:10:00] he would abstract. Build this grid with swirls and colors, and then when you step back, it became a portrait. Thomas: Wow. Michael: Which was, I was always fascinated by it. And I thought that would be fun to do, like self-portraits of each other. Thomas: Yeah. Michael: And you know, obviously we're not going to do nine by seven feet, so maybe a nine by 12, or something that can be mailed easily. Thomas: Right, right. Michael: But you can get a small grid on a nine by 12 and just kind of zoom in on a photograph and instead of drawing, as though you're drawing a face, you just draw what's in that grid, the kind of the shapes and the colors as best you can, and then you move on to the next. And then you sort of end up with, you know, it's not always going to be this pretty image, which is kind of fun. Not all of his were either, he celebrated the ones that were kind of goofy looking too. Thomas: Right. Michael: So his last name is [00:11:00] C L O S E, first name Chuck. I highly recommend you Google him and see if we do it this time or not. Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I will. Michael: But that would be fun. Thomas: I've been playing with Procreate on the iPad and I can totally see how you could have the the photo, then have another layer that is the grid, and then you just pinch open and then have another layer where you then do the drawing in in different brushes and different whatever. Michael: Oh, I love that! I would actually love to know how to do that too, because I don’t know how to mix photo and drawing together in digital format. Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. And actually, I mean, I'm just thinking about this. This is something that we could share easily over email, right? Or file sharing or whatever to get going. Okay. Well, I'm chuckling a [00:12:00] little bit because my last one is like somewhat related and I don't even know what I was thinking here. I just wrote down the words wild selfies and I guess the image that comes to mind is like, yeah, I live 20 minutes from the beach, so I'd probably go down on the beach and just, you know, wild poses or jumps up in the air. I don't know what it might be Michael: Hmm, that's fun. Thomas: Yeah. Michael: You know, I mean, we can each expand on that too. But I want to throw this into the mix just for you and the listeners. I've been on Instagram, there's some amazing artists on Instagram. I really just use Instagram for following artists. And there are a group, many photographers who do what's called Intentional Camera Movement. Thomas: Mm-hmm. Michael: And they purposely move their. [00:13:00] To create visual effects. Thomas: Oh, right. Michael: And there are some that are, I mean, they're like gorgeous abstract paintings. They're so beautiful. Thomas: They're holding the shutter open. Is that what they're doing? Michael: I'm not sure, I generally only take photographs with my iPhone because even though I have very nice equipment, the phone just fits in my pocket and I usually take photographs when I go hiking. Thomas: The iPhone is so good actually. Michael: It's actually quite good. The only way I've been able to do it is at night when the iPhone has a longer exposure and I can play with moving it. So you kind of, there would be some exploration into how do you get enough light, but not too much light and, but those would be some wild selfies for sure. That would be fun to try. Thomas: Yeah. Well, I think we have six fantastic ideas and, and I felt a lot of energy around all of 'em. Michael: Yes. Thomas: So I'm [00:14:00] curious now, what, which one did you feel a lot of energy around in particular? I have one that I did. Michael: I think the one that I got the most energy around as much because I think it combined a couple of what we talked about and the ease of sharing was this idea of these sort of Chuck Close style wild painted selfies using Procreate. Thomas: I agree. Michael: And we can share, you know, constantly in progress sharing and it's, it's digital makes it very easy to do it. Since I'm, you know, we're 800 miles apart so. Thomas: I totally agree. That's the one that I just felt, “Wow, okay.” That's something that I've never done before. And I can totally see, I can already visualize how I might be doing it, at least, for me working on Procreate on the iPad. Do, do you have Procreate?[00:15:00] Michael: I don't, but I suppose I can get it, so yeah. Thomas: Yeah, it's not, it's not that expensive. I think it's just, if I remember right, I think it's just $9.95 or something like that. Michael: I can definitely get it. Thomas: Wow, Michael, this went really quick, which I'm delighted about, and I'm also just, I'm just excited about how all of these ideas were really good. Michael: Yeah. Thomas: I mean, I definitely was sort of imagining something I might be making in Sculpey. And the encaustic painting sounds very interesting as well. But, I think we found something that is actually really exciting here. Michael: I do too. And as a tangent, you know, this could be expanded to many people. Where you take any photograph and it could be a photograph of somebody that we don't even know, and you divide it into nine. So you would need nine different people, you know about it in nine [00:16:00] sections. And then each person takes that and they have to be exactly the same size and that each person takes that. And then we all agree on the size of the grid that we're going to use. And then we each do one ninth and all our focus is on our little piece, and then you bring them all together and see how they form. Thomas: It's like a quilt Michael: A lot of fun too. Yes. That's a lot of fun too. Thomas: Thank you for this offer. I'm going to go and look up Chuck Close now and see what he's come up with. Michael: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Thomas: All right. Very good. we'll be in touch as far as the logistics and all that kind of stuff. Michael: I'm looking forward to it, Thomas.   Thomas: In just a moment. I'll return with Michael. To talk about how we did. On our Chuck close portrait adventure. [00:17:00] (Editor’s note. The musical interlude was performed in Sonic Pi and was created by Pit Noack. The complete code listing is available here: https://www.heise.de/select/ct/2017/13/1497796312321798 )   Thomas: Well, hello Michael. How's it going? Michael: I'm well Thomas, how are you? Thomas: I'm doing great. I have to say I had such a great time with this You And I Make A Thing and creating a self-portrait on the iPad. It was a very interesting experience. Michael: Yes, I could wax away about my experience with it, highs and lows, but I can go into more detail about it, but it was fun. Thomas: Let me read to you a quote from Chuck Close. He was interviewed by Cleveland, Ohio's The Plain Dealer newspaper, and he [00:18:00] made a choice in 1967 to make art hard for himself and force a personal artistic breakthrough by abandoning the paintbrush. He said, “I threw away the tools. I chose to do things I had no facility with. The choice not to do something is, in a funny way more positive than the choice to do something. If you impose a limit to not do something you've done before, it'll push you to where you've never gone before.” When I read that, I thought, wow, that's exactly what we were doing here, isn't it? Michael: Yes. That's great. Thomas: I'm always delighted when I read the thought processes of artists that I follow and admire, and in this case learned about, that sort of mirror some thinking that was going on in my mind. In this case about going places that I've never gone before. Michael: Yeah, this process that we took was, [00:19:00] well by nature my design. It was new to each of us and there were aspects that I love and aspects that I struggled with. It was very, very different process from how I normally create. Thomas: Well expand on that. How did you feel at the very beginning? You know, after we had talked. Michael: Well, I there was a, so the combination of excitement and also newness. I think I had purchased Procreate on another recommendation years ago. I had never done anything with it. And so there was a learning curve. I just went to YouTube videos, and I think you may have sent some videos as well. So I learned how to, you know, have the background photo so that I could then adjust it, things with that, and choosing the grid size. And then it was a matter of the different pens and such. It was all very new to me. And so I'm sure it, you know, to get to where I am, I think I've probably learned maybe one or two percent of what you can do with Procreate. [00:20:00] And I started with sort of the elements that I felt most comfortable with. Thomas: Mm-hmm. Michael: So my creative process is completely different from this. I never draw something that I think I want to draw, or the idea of what I'm going to draw is never there. It's never a specific thing. I draw more from stream of consciousness or in the present, or I must be channeling something. I don't, I actually don't know what, where it comes from. And it just comes out of me. And I often make myself go into a very healthy struggle, if you will, so that I can get myself out of it. Thomas: Hmm. Michael: So my art goes through many iterations. It's always abstract. Sometimes it turns into a really cool abstract image that does look like something, but that's not the intent or it's, that's more of a fun ending. Thomas: Mm-hmm. Michael: So mine is always, I'm never intending to do anything other than just be with the [00:21:00] creative process of art and let it flow. And that's what, that's my charge. I just, I mean, it's just the greatest feeling in the world. Thomas: So this felt, this really felt different for you? Michael: Completely different because I was doing something. So it was in the beginning there was a push-pull on how do I do it so that I could, I have still a creative process that's flowing and actually draw something. And I just started to let go of what I was drawing and get into the meditative movement of it. Following the lines and letting my hand move with the, you know, the apple pencil on my iPad. And, it was fun, in segments where I would get lost were when there weren't any lines to follow. And so I was split to where do I make it up? Or do I zoom in more, or do I make the background image darker so I can see it? It was just, it was, you know, there was a lot of mistakes. There was a huge chunk where I put it all in the wrong layer. I [00:22:00] put a bunch of my drawing on the actual the photograph layer. That was lost, so I had to draw it again, which was fun. Again, this was all a good learning process. But I think I went through a doldrum with it, for a couple reasons, which was really fascinating. One was that I, except for my really large paintings, I don't spend a lot of time on one art piece. Thomas: Mm-hmm. Michael: I usually, it can be a few hours to many hours, but then I'll move on to the next art piece. Even with some of my canvases. It can be like that with my large canvases, you know, like four feet by seven. Thomas: Mm-hmm. Michael: I will spend months, if not a year working on them, you know, once a week, twice a week. They just go through that many iterations and it takes that long to do it. Quite frankly, with this, it's just the size of an iPad, right? Hundred by hundred grid. Thomas: Yeah. Michael: I would get to a point where I would realize my arc for creating it was done so [00:23:00] I'd have to recreate a new arc. And it made me look at the piece differently, it made me look at the process differently and more at first, more constricting and like, ah, why is this like this? And then after I got rid of that voice or I let that voice speak and then I said, okay, what's next? It was more how do I, you know, I'm creating something really cool here. I'm, I'm creating something representational that I'm not focused on that because I'm only focused on each little grid and I'm gonna pour my creativity into each grid. And when I zoom back out, we'll see what it looks like. And I'm not even done with mine, which is kind of exciting. Thomas: I think it looks great as it is already. I mean, to me it has almost like a quilt feel to it. Michael: Yes, you're right. Thomas: Which I think is fabulous. I want to know more about what you mean by arc. I want you to elaborate on what you mean by arc. Does [00:24:00] that mean like the arc of getting into a creative or an in inspired moment? Is that what that means? Michael: So for me, arc in when I'm doing art, what I'm creating, there's, it's undefined as far as time. And when I'm doing something that's not intentionally representational, that's just a free flow, I just follow the arc, so I'll just start drawing and, and, and usually it builds on itself, sort of this beginning. You have a set a space, right? Sometimes it, you know, with or without music, but you have to get into it, it's a process actually. Sometimes you, it just comes immediately and you're just, you're in the flow within the first few seconds. Thomas: Would you say that there's like an act one, act two, act three? Is that what you're getting, at? Michael: There is. Thomas: It sounds to me that there's like a beginning, middle, and end. And, when you were at the end, you were [00:25:00] a little bit, I don't want to say lost, but… Michael: I would say it was the middle. Thomas: Oh, oh, I see. Michael: In the beginning, I got into the flow. I got excited about it, and then I thought when I spent as much time as I did, figuring out the pens and working on this little bit, and I zoomed out and I thought, Oh boy, I just spent an hour and I've barely done, I felt like I barely did anything. I thought, wow, this is going to take way longer than I thought it was, which is why I contacted you and said, we're going to need more time here. Which you graciously, agreed to. And so I think my middle got, I don't know what the right word is. I don't know if it's interrupted, but the flow was changed. And at first I resisted it because I just, I naturally flow when I create. I've never had an interruption before, but I still held the first act. It was, it's always, that's the beauty of art, right? Your first act is always there, [00:26:00] um, unless you pick up a new piece of paper. And so, it was just a very long middle for me. Thomas: Hmm. Michael: I'm coming to the, it almost feels like in this piece I'm coming to the end of one arc and beginning another, or I've done that multiple times on this piece. It's actually forced me to do that. From the way that I normally create to the way to create, so two things, both with the fact that we're, we're doing something that's intentionally representational and in a grid, right? So we're limiting what we do. And also, I don't do that much creation digitally. feeling the paper or the canvas, feeling the pencil or the pen, and feeling the friction as that moves across. Thomas: That tactile feeling. Michael: That tactile feeling is so important. I didn't realize how important it was until we got deeper into this. I've done shorter drawings on the iPad and those were short arcs, you know, an hour, maybe two at most. [00:27:00] But when it gets longer, I'm missing that sound of the pencil. Right? I'm going to draw right now. Just that sound when you're hatching or when you're shading. I'm still drawing right now cause it's, kind of, it's fun. There's this element that I was missing, a connection to the piece of art that I am still learning how to let go of the friction that happens with in-person art. That's not the right word… Versus the immediacy of when the pen touches the pad, it's creating something. And obviously the apple pencil, if you, whether it's angled or your pressure, it does change things, but I'm still, it's all very new. Thomas: Right. And then the fact that we were doing the grid and you're, we're essentially starting over with every grid. Michael: Yes, yes. Thomas: I can see where that sort of lost feeling in the middle of it [00:28:00] is like, oh, okay, I just did something and now I'm starting again. And almost like Groundhog Day. Michael: Yeah. Thomas: So, you know, I experienced a lot of the same thing in mine. I laughed when you said, oh, I was, I was starting to paint another wrong layer. I can't tell you how many times I was started to paint the wrong layer. And in fact, I did finish mine a little bit earlier and just recently I opened up the iPad again because I needed to save it and then send it to you. And I realized I was trying to move it around. And I realized that instead of moving it around, I was painting again. And it's like uh oh! and frantically undoing. But there were a couple strokes that weren't in the undo stack anymore. And so I actually now have to go back and fix a few of the grids because I accidentally painted over them and. And so, or maybe I'll leave it there. I don't know. Michael: Yeah, I think so. Thomas: It [00:29:00] kind of looks goofy to me, but, you know, it's just how it is, right? When you see something that other people maybe not see or they see it differently. But learning the layers was an interesting process. And also it just, it tripped me up quite a bit. It was nice that Procreate does have a grid feature that kind of made it easy. Michael: That was great. Thomas: So for me, I felt it, it was also a little bit weird like painting over a picture of me. Michael: Yes. Thomas: And so it took me a while before that photo of me staring back at me sort of just faded into the background. It took me a while for just to say, oh, okay, I'm just, you know, I'm doing a process here. The thing that never went away from me though, were the eyes and the mouth. I mean, that's sort of where you know, our brains focus on, on eyes and mouth. and that's the part that I had [00:30:00] to like, go over several times. Like, okay, that mouth doesn't look right and I need to, start again. So I ended up spending a lot of time on the eyes and the mouth specifically to try to find something that would translate into this, you know, gridded picture. Michael: Hmm. Thomas: I'm curious, did you have an aha moment at any point where it's like, oh! Michael: I, well, I had a few of them. The biggest one was, you know, when you're drawing or painting on top of a photograph, It always looks fuller and more complete until you turn off the photo layer and then it's obviously it's clearer. It's white behind everything that's, that you haven't drawn on, Thomas: Yeah. Michael: Plus all of your ink colors now look different. Thomas: Yeah. Michael: So I think my biggest aha moment was early on when I remembered to turn off the photo layer. And I saw all these crazy line. I was [00:31:00] maybe 10% done and I saw all these crazy lines and, and, and these weird colors. And I'm thinking, where, where is this coming from? Like I could see that it was sort of my nose and part of my eye. I think that's, think I started right in my,  in that part of my face. But it was, shocking to think like, oh, these colors don't look anything like my photo, like the, I couldn't figure out, and I still can't figure out how you get the right color. That's a mystery still to me. But there was that moment. I think my hair, which in the photo is big and curly. That's been a kind of a wonderful struggle to get the way I wanted to look. Which I don't actually know what that is yet. It's more of a feel to try to figure out how to make it look something like what I think I want it to look like without actually knowing what that is, right? I don't, I don't actually have the answer yet because I don't, I haven't seen it, but I've gone through my hair twice now and I'm still only about 50%. I don't even know if I'm [00:32:00] 50% done. Because I still want to play with my hair actually has lots of different colors in it, shades. It almost looks like it's highlighted. Thomas: Yeah. Michael: So that's actually really hard. And so the kind of, the aha moment is, and I've always felt this way, even when I've, you know, you see, great paintings, by Sargent or, um, I'm forgetting all the great painters at the moment in my head, but hair is always one of the most amazing things that artists are able to do, and I've always been in awe in doing it. Now I can see why, because it's such a fascinating, it's such a fine thing to zoom in on and try to do in blocks. Thomas: Well, I think you did a great job. As far as what I'm seeing so far, and to our listeners, you're welcome to go to the show notes and you'll see both of our portraits there. You've [00:33:00] selected some washes for sort of the base color, and then you have some sort of fine line work that, uh, almost to me looks like, you know, the terrain maps that have the elevations and all that kind of stuff. Michael: Well, I am a civil engineer, Thomas: There you go. Michael: I think it comes out naturally. Thomas: Yeah, I think it's great. So I had a few aha moments. One was that I made a layer specifically for swatches because there's a way in procreate where you just tap down on a color and hold, and it'll pick up that color. I picked that up from a YouTube. So that was sort of a nice little discovery for me. It was, “Oh yeah, create a swatch layer because otherwise those colors ain't coming back.” You know if you're using, like, I used a pen that was called bleach, and so it it's not the full color. It's sort of a runny stained version of that color [00:34:00] that I was using. Michael: I want to hear your other aha, aha moments. But I'm now, I'm excited to go find that feature. Because I was looking for something where I could use like an eyedropper to grab a previous color and I just, I couldn't figure it out. The reason mine is a myriad of different colors is because I was trying to guess what the, what color to use each time. Thomas: Oh, right, right. The other one that I used is the color tool has something called harmony mode, where you can pick a pair of complimentary colors or triad of colors. And so I was using triads in mine. I was sort of filling my squares with like a base color and then covering it with a complimentary color. Michael: Hmm. Thomas: And then putting a dot in the middle to change the gray scale value, like the density. So my thought was, okay, I'm going to create some complimentary colors and then put the dots in to sort of change the [00:35:00] value, the overall value when you pull back. Michael: Oh, interesting. I'm looking at yours right now. It's so great. It has, elements of, uh, Andy Warhol. Thomas: And for the hair, I just did short strokes. I didn't really spend so much time on it because, Michael: It's brilliant. Thomas: Yeah, I had to do my beard and then I had to do my curly hair. What I decided there is I would do strokes, but I, the strokes would remain within the grid. So I wasn't taking the strokes beyond each grid. So each grid was sort of self-contained in terms of that. And I just tried to make sure that I was following the direction of the hair. Michael: Are your grids and your squares of colors, are those in a different layer from your hair? Thomas: No. And, but I should have! I think that one of the things I learned here was, is that layers are good, you know, and the more layers you do, the better. [00:36:00] And definitely when you leave it, leave it on a layer that, that you can, you know, erase stuff on. Because I left it on my main layer. And then, like I said, I came back later and I was trying to move it around and I was actually painting over. It's like, “Oh no!” Michael: Well, and you kind of created a, you created a grid, like your grid is defined on your painting. Thomas: Right. And you mentioned how like when you took away the photograph layer that it changed and so I actually had to create a background layer that was sort of a neutral, like 50% gray. And I played with that a little bit and I made it really dark. I made it light, but I finally sort of settled on sort of in that middle 50% gray as a background, because otherwise to me the photo didn't look dense enough. Michael: And [00:37:00] it's gray background on well, and the listeners will have a look at the images, but you're from your shoulders up, there's one background, and then down below you've got white. There's lots of white that's in there that really helps break up. It creates tension and it helps divide your, painting really nicely. Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I didn't, that wasn't intentional. Michael: That wasn't intentional. Oh, it's fantastic. Thomas: Thank you. I was just following the photograph, so I'd taken the photograph in my bathroom and there's a yellow wall behind me and so that's why I chose that color. And then the shirt, you know, was a sort of a darker gray shirt. Michael: Will the photographs be on the notes as well so they can see what it looks like or just Thomas: Yes. Yeah. Michael: Oh, great. Good. Thomas: Yeah. Michael: Did you choose the colors for your face and your hair? You, you wanted a more abstract and [00:38:00] fun direction? Thomas: Yeah, sort of an orange-ish color. I was contemplating to actually to do like a, like a blueish or greenish, but I just, I thought, well, that might look a little bit too ghoulish. So I went with a warm color. Michael: Okay. Thomas: I had to play with the colors a little bit, definitely. Michael: Well, it's it. Yours is definitely playful. Thomas: Yeah. Thank you. It was also a playful pose that was kind of fun to do the pose. Michael: Mm-hmm. Thomas: So Michael, what would you say or recommend to someone who was going to try this or something similar to this? Michael: I would say, well, okay, I was going to say learn the tools and et cetera. But one of the things that I learned from, where I kind of learned how to create and see and perceive, O'Hanlan Center for the Arts in Mill Valley, was that it's all about seeing and perceiving and kind of [00:39:00] developing that, and letting go of what we've learned in school and the media, whatever that art is, this one thing and it's perfect and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I would throw all that out the window or set it aside depending on, on your feelings on it. And let mistakes happen and let them be a part of your piece. Because it's a part, you're creating a part of you, you're creating a journal entry. And so you can, you know, there is no… I used to know an artist who if she didn't like something, she would stick it in the the sink and then turn on the water and, and let the stuff wash off until she's kind of saw a cool part of it that she wanted to keep. And then she would pull it away and dab it dry and, and then continue. The erase tool can work like that. But I think that I've spent most of my now 24 years drawing, and creating, hardly ever using an eraser and just building on and [00:40:00] incorporating mistakes. And if, if you really like something, don't let it rule the painting or what you're creating. And, you know, kind of have fun with this and let it, you know, choose your grid size carefully because it makes a big difference in how long it's going to take. Thomas: Yeah. Sure does. Michael: But I'm fascinated by what I've, I would, uh, not in my lifetime would I ever create something like this unless I had agreed to do it with you. Because I would've lost interest and I would've like, you know what I, this isn't for me, but because you asked me and we, I agreed and we, you know, made this challenge for ourselves. I stuck to it. So make it so that you know how much time is going to take and then give yourself the time to do it, because it's a really fun process. Thomas: And what’s embedded in what you just said there is to make it a collaboration. Michael: Yes. Thomas: There's something about creating art in collaboration that [00:41:00] really is a little bit different than when you're just sitting by yourself in your studio. I mean, we did this by ourselves, but we were still doing it in collaboration and it makes all the difference in the world. Michael: I one hundred percent agree! Thomas: Yeah. and I also wanted to say that there is really something personal about doing a self-portrait. You know, it's different. It really feels different. It's… Michael: Yes. Thomas: … you know, that's me. It's, it's… Michael: Yeah! Is that, is that what I look like? Thomas: …a picture of me. Michael: Yes. Thomas: Well, Michael, thank you so much for this. This was, this was a real delight and I'm glad we went through this. I'm looking forward to seeing how yours evolves. Let me know as it evolves and at some point if you say, okay, I'm done with it, then let me know as well. I'd love to see it. But this was really a fun project and, and thank you for, sort of guiding us in this [00:42:00] direction of Chuck Close. I'm so delighted to have learned about the artist and what he did so thank you very much. Michael: Thank you for inviting me, uh, Thomas. It's been a delight. Thomas: That's all for today's episode of the Creative Shoofly podcast. I hope you've enjoyed our conversation. The goal of You And I Make A Thing is to step outside our comfort zone and embrace the uncertainty of trying something new. I hope we've inspired you to take a leap into the unknown. Thank you for tuning in. And I look forward to sharing more insights and experiences with you in my next episode. Keep creating and never stop exploring

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