Chalk & Talk

In this episode, Anna Stokke continues the conversation from the previous episode on what happens when requests for evidence are dismissed with the phrase “research shows.” She is joined by Thomas Briggs and David Shuck from the Center for Educational Progress to explore why ineffective or unsupported practices persist in education.

Thomas and David introduce an important distinction between misunderstanding and conviction: sometimes educators genuinely believe they are following best practices, while other times evidence is ignored or dismissed due to ideology.  They discuss examples including flawed advanced math placement decisions, an update on the New York math briefs controversy, concerns around programs like YouCubed, and the impact of San Francisco’s math de-tracking experiment.

The conversation examines how “research shows” can be used both in good faith and as a way to shut down debate, while offering listeners practical ways to think critically about evidence and education policy.

This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

Anna Stokke was recently a guest writer for the Center for Educational Progress.  That article is available at https://www.educationprogress.org/p/what-to-do-when-research-shows-shuts

 

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction
[00:03:16] What is the Center for Educational Progress?
[00:05:10] Two reasons ineffective educational practices persist
[00:07:57] Examples of misunderstandings
[00:09:11] Students being denied access to advanced math
[00:16:14] Is conviction one of the biggest barriers to evidence-based education?
[00:18:56] The controversy around the New York Math Briefs
[00:21:43] NYSED response to Ben Solomon’s petition
[00:25:27] Why did the NYSED’s response shift to political motivation?
[00:27:41] The response from the New York Math Briefs expert
[00:33:24] YouCubed’s education claims and flawed methodology
[00:38:21] YouCubed’s updates and more underlying issues
[00:44:23] San Francisco’s failed de-tracking experiment
[00:51:57] Why tracking and ability grouping helps students
[00:58:52] Final piece of advice for parents and teachers

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES 

What to do when “Research Shows” shuts you down: A guide for parents and teachers
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-9t822-1ab0f70

 

Balanced literacy didn’t work­––Will balanced math? with Ben Solomon
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-usvqw-1962107

 

Science of Math: The movement everyone’s talking about with Sarah Powell
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-gar68-1a4c913

 

Identifying and educating advanced students with Jonathan Plucker
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-y6cxs-16ad6f1

 

Modern relevance in the math curriculum with Brian Conrad
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-gek66-148967a

 

California's math controversy with Jelani Nelson Part I
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-d3bai-144ec76

 

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-71-transcript

MUSIC
Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com
FB: Chalk & Talk
IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast
Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast
X: @rastokke
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c
Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna Stokke explores what to do when a math program or education initiative doesn’t seem to work, but you’re told "research shows" that it does.

Drawing on her personal experience as both a parent and educator navigating “research shows” claims, Anna explains how parents, teachers, and advocates can ask for evidence, evaluate what counts as credible research, and respond when weak claims are presented with confidence.  This episode is based on a presentation she gave at researchED Toronto in 2025.

Anna unpacks common tactics used to shut these conversations down, including shifting the burden of proof, overwhelming people with endless references, credential deflection, and denying that poor practice exists at all.  She also offers practical advice for parents and educators on how to counter these tactics and spot and stop the spread of bad ideas in education.

This is an essential conversation for anyone trying to push for better practice in schools and navigate resistance along the way.

This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

A Substack version of this episode, written by Anna Stokke, as a guest writer for the Center for Educational Progress is available at https://www.educationprogress.org/p/what-to-do-when-research-shows-shuts

TIMESTAMPS
[00:00:22] Introduction
[00:01:35] What to do when something doesn’t feel right
[00:02:48] Why Anna got involved in math education advocacy
[00:06:38] Understanding the phrase “Research shows” in education
[00:07:01] The Wildfire Effect: How bad ideas spread
[00:09:25] How to ask for evidence
[00:09:57] Burden of proof fallacy
[00:11:04] Firehose Effect: Overwhelming you with articles
[00:12:16] Overcoming the Firehose Effect
[00:13:01] Credential deflection
[00:14:59] Gaslighting: When you’re told the problem doesn’t exist
[00:16:11] Evaluating the evidence
[00:17:50] Fuzzy terms: Critical thinking, conceptual understanding, number sense, curiosity, differentiation
[00:19:26] Become informed
[00:18:36] Resources that can help
[00:20:16] Final thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES 
Red flags in education research with Ben Solomon
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-cp5xt-156072c

Mailbag: Building Thinking Classrooms, number talks & more with Zach Groshell
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-stw9g-186807f

Modern relevance in the math curriculum with Brian Conrad
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-gek66-148967a

RELEVANT RESOURCES
The Institute of Education Sciences Practice Guide
https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/practiceguides

The National Mathematics Advisory Panel Final Report
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED500486.pdf

Education Endowment Foundation
https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/

The National Center on Intensive Intervention
https://intensiveintervention.org/

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-70-transcript

MUSIC
Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com
FB: Chalk & Talk
IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast
Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast
X: @rastokke
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c
Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by Professor Joanna Barbousas, Pro Vice-Chancellor of Education, Impact and Innovation, and Dean of the School of Education at La Trobe University in Australia.

Early in her career, Joanna noticed that many capable students struggled to access the curriculum due to gaps in foundational reading and language skills—an insight that has shaped her work ever since.

Now, she is focused on transforming teacher education to better prepare educators using evidence-based practices. Joanna shares how she led major changes at La Trobe University–redesigning programs to align with the science of learning and launching initiatives like the Science of Language and Reading Lab and the Science of Math Education Lab.

Anna and Joanna also explore why change is so difficult in universities and what it takes to lead meaningful reform.

This is a compelling conversation for anyone interested in improving education and translating research into practice.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE 
La Trobe Short Course:  Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

ResearchED Calgary
ResearchED Calgary registration: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/researched-calgary-tickets-1984343272144

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction
[00:05:19] How Joanna’s early teaching shaped her leadership initiatives
[00:06:51] How Joanna went from classroom teacher to Dean
[00:10:31] The education landscape in Australia
[00:15:38] Unpacking the Rowe report
[00:19:23] The importance of teacher education reviews in Australian
[00:24:51] The outcomes of the TEEP review

 [00:30:08] Becoming the Dean of Education at La Trobe University
[00:35:25] Reaction from faculty members
[00:43:34] SOLAR Lab – How was it established?
[00:49:17] Explaining the successful Nexus program
[00:53:38] What Joanna learned about retaining teachers in hard-to-staff schools
[00:55:17] Ideas for a national model
[00:57:42] Why change matters: A message to leaders
[01:00:26] Conclusion

 

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES 
Rebuilding teacher training through cognitive science with Jonas Linderoth
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zwqb7-19e0dae

Reclaiming learning time to boost literacy and numeracy with Ross Fox
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bpy4n-188c9c5

Using evidence in education with Pamela Snow
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-jc9mq-161ecac

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-69-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/resources/ep-69-resources

 

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com

FB: Chalk & Talk

IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast
Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. Montserrat (Montse) Gomendio, a former Secretary of State for Education in Spain.  Montse is also a former Deputy Director of Education for the OECD, the international organization that administers the PISA test. Drawing on global data, including from PISA, Montse explains why some education systems consistently perform well while others struggle to improve.

Montse discusses the three key drivers of effective education systems:  teacher quality, a knowledge-rich curriculum, and strong assessments aligned with that curriculum.  Anna and Montse discuss what large-scale international assessments like PISA can (and can’t) tell us. The conversation also explores why education reform is so difficult to implement, what high-performing systems right like those in East Asia and Estonia get right, and whether Finland’s reputation as a model system is supported by evidence.

This is a fascinating conversation that will appeal to educators, policymakers, and anyone interested in what actually drives improvement in education systems.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

MONTSERRAT GOMENDIO’S BOOK (OPEN ACCESS)
Dire Straits-Education Reforms: Ideology, Vested Interests and Evidence: https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0332

SHORT COURSE 
La Trobe Short Course:  Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

ResearchED Calgary
ResearchED Calgary registration: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/researched-calgary-tickets-1984343272144

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction
[00:04:55] The role of Deputy Director of Education at the OCED
[00:06:21] What is the purpose of PISA?
[00:07:29] How is PISA different from TIMSS or PIRLS?
[00:12:54] What is an appropriate definition of equity?
[00:15:06] Measures that improve educational equity
[00:19:57] The perplexing narrative about Finland as a top performer
[00:28:42] Why do East Asian countries perform so well?
[00:33:00] The importance of content knowledge
[00:36:06] Misleading recommendations from the OECD
[00:37:16] After-school tutoring in East Asian countries
[00:41:36] Why implementation in different countries can be difficult: Latin America
[00:46:18] Reducing class size: popular and expensive, but ineffective
[00:48:08] What makes an effective teacher?
[00:52:01] A look at Estonia’s education system
[00:54:14] Why is it so hard to implement reforms even when they are evidence-based?
[01:02:23] Preventing the reversal of good education policies
[01:06:31] What are the main components that make an effective education system?

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES 

When a mathematician became education minister: Nuno Crato on transforming education
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pxzyk-19b773f

Balanced literacy didn’t work—will balanced math?
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-usvqw-1962107

From decline to top rankings: How England transformed education with Nick Gibb
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zps9p-18c1e97

Understanding math reform ideology with Tom Loveless 
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a

 

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-68-transcript

 

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com

FB: Chalk & Talk

IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast

Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. John Sweller, emeritus professor at the University of New South Wales and the researcher best known for developing Cognitive Load Theory. Together, they explore how cognitive load theory should guide classroom practice, particularly in mathematics.

John explains the limits of working memory, how experts and novices approach problem solving differently, and how strategies like worked examples can help manage cognitive load. They also discuss whether productive failure is supported by research and the strong experimental evidence supporting explicit instruction, particularly when students are learning new content.

This episode will be extremely valuable for educators, especially math teachers, who want to better understand how students become expert problem solvers and what that means for effective instruction.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE 

La Trobe Short Course:  Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

TIMESTAMPS
[00:00:22] Introduction
[00:03:53] Biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge
[00:09:34] Element Interactivity
[00:15:37] Two characteristics of working memory
[00:16:52] Understanding long-term memory
[00:21:06] Does working memory capacity vary for different people?
[00:21:44] Can working memory capacity be altered?
[00:22:45] How can you measure working memory?
[00:23:49] Explaining cognitive load theory
[00:27:55] Can you measure cognitive load?
[00:31:51] Sweller’s definition of problem solving
[00:37:28] Understanding schemas
[00:44:26] The way novices and experts categorize problems differently
[00:46:11] The expertise reversal effect
[00:50:13] How to identify students are ready for problem solving
[00:52:12] Thoughts on productive failure
[00:55:40] Why is there still debate about prioritizing inquiry-based approaches in math instruction?

 

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES 

Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zgw6i-13b33df

Cognitive load theory with Greg Ashman
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-thbad-13cea56

Cognitive load theory in math class with David Morkunas
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-znh5k-15f7937

Unmasking instructional illusions with Paul Kirschner, Carl Hendrick and Jim Heal
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-kvuee-198b6ee

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-67-transcript

MUSIC
Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com
FB: Chalk & Talk
IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast
Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast
X: @rastokke
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c
Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social