Chalk & Talk

• A decade of decline: examining falling test scores with Mike Petrilli (Ep 45)

  In this episode, host and math professor Anna Stokke interviews Mike Petrilli, President of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, about the role of standardized testing in K–12 education. They discuss the benefits and criticisms of standardized tests, the methodologies behind tests like NAEP, international comparisons with PISA and TIMSS, long-term trends in student performance, and the consequences of declines in student achievement.  Highlights include a discussion of Mississippi's educational success despite high poverty rates, and the potential influences of modern educational policies and smartphones. Mike Petrilli emphasizes the importance of accurate measurement for policymaking and shares advice on influencing educational policy.  This episode is a must-listen for educators, policymakers, parents, and anyone interested in the future of education. FREE WEBINAR: The Science of Math Instruction: Using Evidence-Based Practices in the Classroom, May 8, 2025.  Registration link: https://home.edweb.net/webinar/mathskills20250508/ TIMESTAMPS [00:00:00] Introduction   [00:03:18] Discussion on standardized testing  [00:06:14] Criticisms of standardized testing  [00:12:25] Frequency and levels of testing  [00:20:04] International perspectives on testing  [00:23:11] Understanding NAEP  [00:28:07] Recent trends in NAEP scores  [00:28:41] Impact of the pandemic   [00:31:16] Pre-pandemic declines   [00:32:26] Comparing international trends: PISA scores  [00:33:08] The role of smartphones  [00:35:26] TIMSS scores  [00:38:16] Long-term impact of declining academic achievement  [00:39:20] Efforts to address learning loss  [00:42:12] States that bucked the trend: the “Mississippi miracle” [00:46:44] Low-performing states  [00:49:54] Future strategies for education systems  [00:53:22] Influencing educational policy  [00:55:49] Conclusion and final thoughts  RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Ep 33.  Educational leadership:  Improving math and literacy with Scott Hill https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-vpzf8-16d0c17 Ep 32. Identifying and educating advanced students with Jonathan Plucker https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-y6cxs-16ad6f1 Ep 25.  Understanding reform math ideology with Tom Loveless https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a Ep 18.  Education myth-busting with Daisy Christodoulou https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-z2q9q-14ce080 EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/ep-45-transcript EPISODE RESOURCES https://www.annastokke.com/ep-45-resources MUSIC Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – Mazamorra, Tarte Tatin, Willow Willow, Betty Dear, Lissa Website: www.annastokke.com X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

  --------  

  59:36
• Mailbag: Building Thinking Classrooms, number talks & more with Zach Groshell (Ep 44)

  Dr. Anna Stokke and guest Dr. Zach Groshell answer listener questions in a special mailbag episode. They cover strategies for managing varying levels of math proficiency in the classroom, critique the Building Thinking Classrooms approach, and discuss whether number talks should be prioritized for developing math fact fluency. This discussion provides practical insights and critiques on current educational practices to help teachers improve math instruction. TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Introduction 02:44 Listener Question: Differentiating Direct Instruction 05:52 Zach's advice on differentiation 10:10 Listener Question: Building Thinking Classrooms 11:20 Are multiple access points effective? 15:14 Critique of Building Thinking Classrooms 19:03 Does research support using BTC? 20:53 Is everyone doing it wrong? 22:17 Observing BTC in action 23:46 Defining thinking and why mimicking is important 27:30 Permanent vs. non-permanent learning surfaces 29:04 The practicality of mini whiteboards 31:34 Advice from Anna & Zach on whether to use BTC 36:20 Listener question: Number talks and math fact fluency 37:53 Critique of number talks 40:09 Using effective methods for building math fact automaticity 42:19 Advice on mental math strategies 44:18 Using instructional time efficiently 46:21 Conclusion and book description RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Ep 10 Maximizing learning through explicit instruction with Zach Groshell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-px8h6-1443528 Ep 36 How to build automaticity with math facts: A practical guide https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-3ny3k-17323a9 Ep 2 Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-zgw6i-13b33df Ep 3 The Science of Math with Amanda VanDerHeyden https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bksbz-13c732d Ep 23 Red flags in education research with Ben Solomon https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-cp5xt-156072c Ep 29 Math fact crisis: strategies for improving numeracy with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-u9y84-165d773 Ep 30 Math Fluency matters with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pj6z6-166741e Ep 41 Supporting students with math difficulties with Sarah Powell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-ciqgm-17def6b EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/ep-44-transcript MUSIC Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Website: www.annastokke.com X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social      

  --------  

  49:03
• How advocacy is changing reading instruction with Jamie Metsala (Ep 43)

  Join Anna Stokke in conversation with Dr. Jamie Metsala, one of two content area experts on the Ontario Human Rights Commission’s Right to Read public inquiry. Jamie shares her expertise on the importance of strong early instruction in foundational reading skills, the pitfalls of balanced literacy, and the urgent need for evidence-based practices in education.  They explore the role of parent advocacy and the far-reaching implications of the Right to Read report, not just for Ontario, but for education systems across Canada and beyond.  Jamie explains why universal screening matters, how structured literacy benefits all readers, and what effective intervention looks like. They also discuss the importance of teacher preparation programs and ongoing professional development to equip educators with the tools they need to teach reading successfully.  With many provinces and states still relying on ineffective reading instruction, systemic change is critical. Jamie offers valuable advice for advocates, making this conversation essential listening for educators, parents, and anyone advocating for evidence-based education reform.  researchED Toronto 2025: https://researched.org.uk/event/researched-toronto-2025/ NOTE: The resource page contains links to reports, articles, and websites mentioned in the episode: annastokke.com/ep-43-resources TIMESTAMPS [00:00:00] Introduction  [00:04:06] The Ontario Human Rights Commission Right to Read inquiry [00:06:40] Reading achievement in Ontario and other provinces [00:13:19] The impact of balanced literacy and its flawed assumptions [00:19:21] What science says about teaching foundational reading skills [00:29:15] Universal screening and early interventions [00:32:30] Problems with Reading Recovery  [00:36:32] How Canadian provinces are responding to the Right to Read inquiry [00:41:10] Teacher preparation and the resistance to change [00:50:25] Challenges in implementing evidence-based literacy instruction [00:52:06] Debunking myths: Do all students learn differently? [00:54:20] Structured literacy and the importance of fluency [01:00:43] Consequences of poor reading instruction [01:06:50] Advice for advocates [01:12:47] Final thoughts: The future of reading and math education RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Ep 20 Reading and math: Parallels and pitfalls with Matthew Burns https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-8aj3f-1508af6 Ep 27 Using evidence in education with Pamela Snow https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-jc9mq-161ecac Ep 29 Math fact crisis: strategies for improving numeracy with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-u9y84-165d773 EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/ep-43-transcript EPISODE RESOURCES https://www.annastokke.com/ep-43-resources MUSIC Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – Proliferate, Balti, Momentary Ease Podington Bear – Camp, Kitten, Squirrel Commotion Website: www.annastokke.com X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social  

  --------  

  1:15:17
• Math Academy: Optimizing student learning with Alex Smith and Justin Skycak (Ep 42)

  Join Anna Stokke in conversation with Dr. Alex Smith, Director of Curriculum, and Justin Skycak, Director of Analytics, from Math Academy.  Math Academy is an AI-powered online learning platform designed around science of learning principles.  They discuss Bloom's 2 sigma problem and explore how Math Academy aims to address it. They also explain how the platform leverages knowledge graphs to support mastery learning and highlight key instructional strategies such as worked examples, spaced practice, and the testing effect. They explore how Math Academy manages cognitive load to optimize learning as well as its success with adult learners and advanced students.  They also discuss the concrete-pictorial-abstract approach in math instruction.  To wrap up, Justin and Alex share exciting updates and future plans for Math Academy.  This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in math education. NOTE: The resource page contains resources and research articles mentioned in the episode: annastokke.com/ep-42-resources TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Introduction 04:41 Bloom's 2 sigma problem 10:11 Mastery learning 13:17 Math knowledge graph 21:03 Importance of prerequisite skills 26:42 Worked examples 33:11 Concrete-pictorial-abstract discussion 40:56 Incorporating spaced practice 47:47 Leveraging the testing effect 52:14 Independent learning and incentives 55:51 Math Academy for adult learners 01:01:49 Accelerating advanced students 01:09:57 The future of Math Academy 01:13:26 Final thoughts RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Ep 32. Identifying and educating advanced students with Jonathan Plucker https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-y6cxs-16ad6f1 Ep 15. Modern relevance in the math curriculum with Brian Conrad https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-gek66-148967a Ep 7. How to excel in math and other tough subjects with Barbara Oakley https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bqs8p-14068f2 EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/ep-42-transcript EPISODE RESOURCES https://www.annastokke.com/ep-42-resources MUSIC Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – Balti, Betty Dear, Willow Willow, Partly Sage Podington Bear – Camp, Kitten Website: www.annastokke.com X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

  --------  

  1:14:55
• Supporting students with math difficulties with Sarah Powell (Ep 41)

  Join Anna Stokke in conversation with Dr. Sarah Powell, a leading expert in teaching students with math difficulties. They discuss the shortcomings of a recent joint position statement by the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM) and the Council for Exceptional Children (CEC) on teaching math to students with disabilities. Sarah critiques the statement’s failure to include critical evidence-based practices, such as explicit instruction, and its reliance on vague or unsupported recommendations. She highlights research-backed strategies that can truly help students struggling with math, emphasizing the ethical responsibility of educators, policymakers, and advocates to ensure effective math instruction.  Sarah also co-authored a response to the position statement. Note: The resource page for this episode contains a link to the NCTM/CEC position statement, Sarah’s group’s response, and other articles mentioned in the episode: annastokke.com/ep-41-resources TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Introduction  05:06 Understanding math disabilities 08:19 The NCTM/CEC position statement 17:06 Does growth mindset help math outcomes? 17:53 Is UDL evidence based? 21:57 Evidence-based practices for teaching math 29:07 The omission of explicit instruction 30:55 Why explicit instruction is important 35:51 The IES practice guide 38:50 Consequences of poor instruction 41:44 The Influence of NCTM and CEC 43:26 Recommendations for effective math instruction 49:43 Preventing math difficulties 56:02 Final thoughts RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Ep 29 Math fact crisis: Strategies for improving numeracy with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-u9y84-165d773 Ep 30 Math Fluency matters with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pj6z6-166741e Ep 25 Understanding math reform ideology with Tom Loveless https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a Ep 21 The right to learn math with Daniel Ansari https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-4nv9n-1527568 Ep 3 The Science of Math with Amanda VanDerHeyden https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bksbz-13c732d EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/ep-41-transcript EPISODE RESOURCES https://www.annastokke.com/ep-41-resources MUSIC Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – Thannoid, Tarte Tatin, Cornicob, Momentary Ease Podington Bear – Proliferate Website: www.annastokke.com X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

  --------  

  58:53

More Education podcasts

Trending Education podcasts

About Chalk & Talk